A Conversation with David Khalili, MA, LMFT

Jan 14

In this conversation, Michelle Renee and David Khalili, MA, LMFT, discuss various topics related to connection, communication, and personal growth. They explore the importance of asking for help and setting boundaries, as well as the impact of goal-focused sex on relationships. They also discuss the role of journaling in emotional processing and the benefits of expanding the definition of sex. The conversation highlights the need for healthy endings and the value of working triadically to provide comprehensive support. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, communication, and building strong connections. In this conversation, David Khalili discusses his favorite parts of the book on ⁠Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker⁠. He highlights the concepts of reparenting and the inner critic. The discussion then moves on to understanding the inner critic and outer critic and the toxic relationship between the two. David emphasizes the importance of playing a different game in life and finding alternative ways of succeeding. The conversation also explores the topics of verbal ventilation, permission for tears, and the significance of grief and mourning. The impact of nurturing and the broad scope of complex PTSD are discussed. Finally, David shares information about Rouse Relational Wellness and the therapy services they offer.

David Khalili (he/him) is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a board-certified sexologist, and the founder of Rouse Relational Wellness in San Fransisco. He can be found on social media at ⁠@rousetherapy⁠ and at ⁠https://www.rousetherapy.com⁠

Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Intimacy Guide and Surrogate Partner. Michelle's website is ⁠⁠https://meetmichellerenee.com⁠⁠ and can be found on social media at ⁠@meetmichellerenee⁠.

If you’d like to ask a question, for Michelle to answer on an episode, ⁠click here⁠.

To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers, ⁠click here⁠.

Rough Transcript

Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:01.165)

Oh, welcome back to the intimacy lab. Today I'm joined with David Kalili, who is a LMFT up in the Bay area, who we just kind of like ran into each other because I love listening to podcasts. And, um, David was a guest on Get Naked with Dr. Kate it was during soft cock week.

And your conversation was just like right in alignment with what I've been talking about the whole week. And it was just like if we'd only known this was on purpose or something, and I know it wasn't at all. But then I was like, oh, wait, I think we're connected on Instagram. So I went and found one of your posts and just shared that I was really, really loved your conversation. And you were like, we should we should connect. Which is awesome. I don't know. I feel like I still pinch myself that.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (00:32.139)

I know right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (00:46.006)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:52.577)

People are a yes to connecting with me for some reason. I think it's because I'm not in the regular talk therapy world as far as like, I'm not a talk therapist. I love working with talk therapists. I prefer to collaborate than to work solo. And not everybody's like game to invite me to their table. So thanks David.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (00:59.438)

Mm. Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:15.778)

Well, you're welcome at my table anytime. Thank you for having me at your table. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:19.729)

Yeah, thanks for joining us. So part of I didn't ask you about this beforehand. So you have the option to say no, like, but I've been doing these, we're not really strangers cards with people that come on the

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:34.73)

I almost played with that last night actually. Yeah, let's do it.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:37.277)

Okay, I'm just gonna, so I'm not gonna pull from the regular deck just because this little healing edition has been really interesting as far as like how it relates to my work and stuff and I'm like kind of loving these cards. So if you're cool, we're just gonna, so we're not really strangers, had 40% off their entire store like around Black Friday and all that kind of time.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:52.846)

Cool, I'll check out that deck too.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:59.744)

Mmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:02.373)

And so I kind of went in and bought every expansion that I had that I didn't have. And so I have a whole pile of these cards and there's a history to them. But let me just find one here. Let's see here. All right, I'm just going to read it. When was the last time you didn't ask for help but really needed it? And explain. And we can take our time to think about it.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (02:27.475)

Oh boy, that's a good one.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:31.937)

There's no rush and I'm going to think for a second about what mine would be. I feel like I could just say all the time because I'm really bad at asking for help.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (02:42.822)

Yeah, I mean, that's like, you know, so I have like a really specific example of going hiking with my friends and my now wife, and for some reason, and it's not this conscious thing, but like, when someone, someone says, Do you want water? Like, no, I'm good. But I'm like, not good.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:49.483)

Ha!

Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:06.929)

I'm good. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (03:12.206)

You know, we're like five miles into the hike and my water's out. And so then what ends up happening is, and I don't like this about myself and I'm, you know, working on it, but what ends up happening is someone has to just hand me and go here, take the water. This is your water now. And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. That's really good. And I feel it's the same way with like getting massages or getting some type of, I used to hate the idea of getting massages and hate the idea of like

Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:28.521)

Yes.

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (03:41.834)

just a stranger touching me. But then as I started to really be like, okay, this is a learning process. I'm not gonna just really sink into this right away. And now I love them. I go once a month, if not twice a month, and I can just sink in, and my nervous system isn't really activated as it used to be. And so I think those are moments, and were moments where I could ask for help with like, I am tense everywhere, but then not, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:00.385)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:11.905)

Good question. How are you at letting your massage therapist know when you need something different?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (04:18.518)

Getting better.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:19.849)

Good, good. Because I know we're all a work in progress, right? And I love the idea that like, people like to put us on pedestals, right? I know I'm like seen on a pedestal a lot. And I like to take myself off the pedestal a lot to say, I'm just a couple steps ahead of you all. Like, it's not a finished product. I don't think there is a finished product, right? And I do the same thing. I remember going into...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (04:23.351)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (04:29.419)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (04:38.998)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (04:42.562)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:48.129)

the Korean spa, one of them here in San Diego. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do the massage and the body scrub. And they asked like, how hard do you want your massage? And I put like, yeah, hard. Oh my gosh, was I so out of my league when I said hard, I did not know what I was signing up for. And the communication was a real struggle with the practitioner and.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (04:56.66)

Uh-huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (05:04.005)

Ugh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (05:13.518)

Uh huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:13.913)

I just was like, I just kept saying, wow, you're really strong. I, it's like, I didn't know how to advocate for myself in that space. And like it's, I'm one of these people that kind of have to, I'm a slow processor sometimes. And like, I have to take some space away and give myself like, like sometimes I'm, I'm like, okay, Michelle, look, you figure that out faster than last time. That's an improvement, right? You asked, I remember I use this example a lot of this, like, kind of like,

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (05:18.911)

Right, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (05:35.842)

Yep. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:43.989)

Maybe it's not asking for help, it's speaking up. Where I've said to my partner, look, that thing you did back there when we were driving, that was some shit. Like you just totally like zoned out on our conversation and just like acted like I wasn't there anymore. Like I'm in the middle of telling you a story and you're on your phone and like, what was that about? And the good news was it only took me 10 minutes of stewing in the car before I brought it up rather than a day, right? Sometimes it's those little like...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (06:08.586)

Uh huh. Yep.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:14.236)

increments.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (06:15.145)

That's the marker of success.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:17.145)

Yeah, yeah. So specifically last time I, that I didn't ask for help, it really needed it.

It's, I can't think of an example exactly cause I'm getting better at it. So it's like, I will tell you the last time I got really frustrated and almost didn't ask for help. Like I got there, it just took me, it takes me a little bit to remember that I can ask for help.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (06:32.15)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (06:42.254)

Uh huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (06:48.268)

Yep.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:50.129)

It wasn't a thing in my household growing up that was really encouraged.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (06:55.198)

Yeah, and I think for me, culturally, both of my parents immigrated, and specifically from my dad coming from Iran, and that culture, it's very collectivistic, very community oriented, and the way that you show love is by taking up space or not taking up space, and knowing how to kind of navigate and weave through, and I'm starting to think of other things related to that. But so in a way, like that...

that is part of why I have that reaction or that kind of sensibility of me as, you know, making sure everyone else is taken care of before I am. And yeah, just some of those aspects. And so, you know, when I go through my mind of like, okay, what is, how much of this is related to culture, to masculinity, to anxiety, to, you know, that, there's a lot of little things in each column, but it.

I think it's a useful exercise to know like, okay, well, which column has taken up the most real estate? Start there.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:57.445)

Yeah, the intersectionalities that show up and yeah, for sure. I know as somebody socialized female, like it's just that's part of the ingrained process of helping others but maybe not getting support for yourself. Again, it goes to so many, it's like lasagna. I'm just like you're talking columns and I'm thinking in the other direction of like, oh, there's so many layers here. Yeah. I

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (08:02.699)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (08:06.858)

Right? Oh, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (08:18.971)

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:25.393)

I was listening, again, love podcasts. I was listening to a really great podcast, I think it was last week, maybe the week before, on Huberman Lab about this one specific form of journaling that they have scientifically proven to be actually really beneficial. They can prove that it affects your immune system. And it was like, basically you would take a traumatic experience and you would write about it for 15 to 30 minutes, everything you could remember about it.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (08:43.991)

Oh, wow.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (08:54.326)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:55.657)

being as honest as you can be, right? Not minimizing your experience, everything you could recall, put it down. You could type it or write it, didn't matter, which one of those you used. And you would do it for four days in a row or once every day for four weeks. Not once every, once every week for four weeks or four days in a row. And they came out with similar blood work results around your immune system. And so...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (08:59.962)

Mmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (09:04.59)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (09:15.97)

Uh huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (09:20.64)

Oh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:24.617)

I came across a task the other day that I was just like very overwhelmed by. I couldn't figure out how to do it. I hate that I didn't know how to do the thing, right? I started to beat myself up. I'm like, why do I not know how to do this? And then I started to get emotional and the tears started to well up. And then I just said, OK, I need to walk away from this task. But then I was like, oh, I'm already in this activated space. I should write about it. I should do this journaling exercise. Right. And I couldn't pinpoint an exact experience where that

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (09:34.318)

Hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (09:47.226)

Uh huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:53.757)

I could tie that too, but I just wrote about the culture of my upbringing, right? Of what it was like when I was a kid to need help. That wasn't super welcomed. I was the person in charge of keeping all my sisters in line. I was the, like, there was just a lot of pressure there. And so it was kind of interesting to take that exercise and kind of jot down your thoughts. And I could come up with stuff that I couldn't come up with if it was just in my head.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (09:57.782)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (10:04.596)

Uh-huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (10:13.887)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (10:20.686)

Very cool.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:20.777)

It was like writing it down helped me kind of sort it out. So it was kind of fun. I mean, in a crying, I'm really emotionally exhausted kind of way afterwards. That's what you like to do for fun. I mean, it wasn't a Friday night, but you know, anywho, so thanks for playing with me. Yeah. So are you cool if we talk about some of my, like what I was thinking about when I listened to your podcast episode with Dr. Kate? So.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (10:24.479)

Yeah.

Sure. That fun, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (10:37.342)

Yeah, thank you for that.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (10:46.286)

Please, yeah. And I'm also happy to talk about the complex PTSD book too.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:53.329)

Yeah, okay. So let me just, I want to highlight something and maybe we'll bring you back to talk about this on the soft cock week podcast, but I want to, I want to touch on it here. Cause I just was like, Oh yeah. There was a point where you were talking about the circular. Well, how do you call it? Your circular? Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (10:59.414)

Okay.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (11:09.448)

Mm. So you know, Model of Sex or also the Smorgasbord of Delight. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:13.893)

Yeah, I loved it because I think you painted the picture of like a 70s round bed that rotates, right? And there's like all this sex around the edges, right? And I love that. And that's totally my softcock thing is like, can we just expand our ideas of what sex are? And we can solve a lot of this, right? It's not such an issue when you have erectile differences, when you aren't expecting to move the sexual escalator, right? So.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (11:21.355)

Uh-huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (11:30.475)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (11:39.711)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:41.877)

There was a little moment where you said something about, I should have pulled the exact quote, but I'm terrible at prepping for these things. You said something about that, at least what landed in my mind was what happens in a space where you get so desperate to move through the sexual escalator, it made me think about consent. And we get out of our integrity when we get so goal focused.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (11:58.915)

Mmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (12:09.217)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:10.653)

Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (12:12.394)

No, you're absolutely on point. And yeah, it's something that I talked about also on Midori's Consent Dojo podcast, where we talked about anxiety interfering with consent. So yeah, to your point, right, when you have the linear model of sex, which is that escalator that goes, it's the basis is another way to think about it. And so if your whole goal is to chase your cum or to whatever it may be,

Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:24.575)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:32.691)

Yep.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (12:40.738)

then you're only just gonna be focused on that outcome rather than whatever may be involved. And so yeah, especially for guys that I've talked to where they may feel like they don't have the best of luck with sex or with getting dates or anything like that, becomes this very desperate, toxic act of like, I don't even think it's.

For some it's conscious, but for others it's not that conscious, but it's something that needs to be brought to the conscious so that they can investigate it, but it's like, I better get mine, or this is my only chance, or you know. And that is changing to an extent over time, just as the concepts of masculinity and expectations of that are changing, but not fast enough.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:15.305)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:30.237)

Yeah, I think it's something that we'd never, I've been soft cocked for two years. Let's not act like there's this long lineage here, but it was a topic that we hadn't touched on and we didn't touch on this year. And I think it's a really, it's something that should be brought to the forefront just as something to be aware of, right? I think that's the part of consent. When we talk about consent, there's so many nuances. People get stuck on the yes, no, like was.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (13:42.187)

Hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:58.301)

Was there a yes or a no given? But there's like, it's the agreements, it's how we're gonna meet each other. And if we've got, I see clients that are just like, their idea of what successful sex looks like is a little stunted in their development, I think. And it gets in the way of them really considering what the other person that they're with is experiencing.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (14:05.57)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (14:27.222)

Yep. Yeah, because then it becomes very self-focused, very goal-focused. The other person becomes like a prop in that situation just for the goal. Um, even if, you know, even if you were to ask them, like, do you see your partner as a prop? They're like, no, of course not. But there's just, you know, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:32.106)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:44.637)

No, they're completely unaware. And you don't expect them to be aware, right? I said to a client the other day, I said, I think what you're not understanding is that good sex does not mean good connection, but good connection can very well mean good sex, right? And I think it's like this focus of, I've got to get really good at the sex because then I'll be able to have good connections.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (14:50.08)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (14:59.906)

Mmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (15:03.754)

Uh huh, yes.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:12.093)

It's like, no, but we got to do it the other way around. Like, that's how I work, right? And it's, I, hmm, is there a rock that says that message that I could just beat against people's head? Like, it's such a dance to try to help them put some of the, like, I don't say we, we got to move through the developmental stages in a way. And it's like, who, this is why I like working triadically and having

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (15:16.738)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (15:37.55)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:41.889)

good talk person on the team that can help. That's not my world, right? That's not my specialty. And so I'm just there to help them have a laboratory to kind of experience what connection feels like, generally from the platonic side. That's my, 90% of my work is spent in that space and yet they all come looking for the sex help. So.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (15:42.029)

Mmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (15:47.214)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (16:09.518)

Yeah, and I'm looking at ways, to build off of your point around helping with connection, it's like with cooking, you wanna learn techniques first before just kind of the few recipes, or at least in my mind. And so when I'm working with couples or individuals, I'm helping them learn how to connect with themselves and understand their emotional reactions. I tell them in session, like if you ever, while we're talking, if you have a sudden shift in emotion.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:22.886)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (16:37.63)

even if you're mid-sentence, just stop and let us know. And we'll either investigate it or we'll just kind of bookmark it and keep going. And that intervention alone helps them kind of practice recognizing when they're having a shift in emotion so that they can name it to their partner. Something I'm constantly saying to couples is, you know, well, why don't you ask? They'll say like, well, you did this because of that, that. And I'm like, well, ask him. You know, and that's, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:40.7)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:02.353)

Yeah, the story gets in the way so often, right? Yeah, that whole like, just talk about it thing is such a skill set that if you didn't grow up in a household where it was safe, now you've got this person that it might be safe with or it might not be safe with. But you don't know until you try and that's where having a good therapist to help kind of practice that, like hold the space to be able to walk somebody through that, because

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (17:05.59)

and it builds up and builds and builds. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (17:27.789)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:32.533)

It's like, it would be like trying to perform surgery if you've never taken a class on anatomy. In so many ways, you've got to have somebody that can model and say, wait a minute, you're moving into that rut of thought that we tend to go down. Let's think of another way we can approach this. I don't know, Reid Mihalko does like his, you know, steps to having difficult

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (17:38.314)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (17:51.643)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (18:00.458)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:02.503)

Figure you being barrier Bay Area

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (18:05.374)

Yeah, I've been following him for a number of years. I really appreciate his work.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:07.613)

Yeah. Have you ever gone to Sex Geeks summer camp?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (18:11.454)

Not yet, it's definitely on my list, but yeah, I've seen them. I've been to body storytelling a bunch. Not in a, not in a bit, but, um, I've seen them talk there and yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:13.407)

Is it?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:18.442)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:23.209)

He has some of my favorite ones, like because I started, I got into wanting to do sex education through finding Betty Dotson. So 2014, I come across an article about her and I just, I needed to know everything that she had to teach me. Like I say she walked me through my divorce without actually having met her until farther down the line. But he tells a story about getting punched, I think it's called like.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (18:33.146)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:50.881)

Punched in the Ass by Betty Dodson or something like that. It's such a great, Punch in the Asshole or something like that. Such a great story. I've just been connected with Dixie from Body. Just Yoni, mutual person I put you in touch with, Yoni Elkin is good friends with Dixie. And do you know Phoenix Mandel? Phoenix connected me directly with Dixie because Dixie was a sexy summer camp and was looking to maybe bring Body down to San Diego.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (19:03.115)

Oh cool.

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (19:12.418)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:20.861)

So all the worlds, they all intertwine. We're never too far apart from each other. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (19:23.998)

Yeah, that's really good.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (19:29.41)

I like, I love all the collaborations going on and just like building up on each other's knowledge base and resources and work that we're doing and trying to get good information out there.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:38.317)

So you should have been on my West Coast Intimacy call this morning. Let me tell you what. So for the people at home, I do a West and East Coast Intimacy professionals, which is like a peer-to-peer support. And I came in looking for a case consultation. And it was such a really rich conversation. And one of the things we'll say is, like, it's so good. We have all these different people in this group that have little bits of knowledge. And

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (19:43.828)

Oh yeah?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:05.041)

all these different places and the fact that we all come together and like want to share with each other and support each other just feels so much less lonely than I imagine it was years ago and trying to do intimacy work. Like, I'm so blessed. Anyways. Okay, so I think I do want to bring you back for softcock to talk more in depth about that. I don't know if it'll happen this year or if it'll happen closer to next year's week.

The other thing that we have in common, or at least we figured out that we have in common, is an appreciation for the book Complex PTSD, From Surviving to Thriving. And I talk a lot about reparenting by committee.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (20:45.323)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (20:51.414)

Yeah, I like that part. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:54.153)

The thing I'm struggling with trying to sort out around this is I do see myself as one of the first safe enough people, like talk therapists can be a first safe enough person, right?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (20:58.222)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:09.853)

what are the boundaries around that look like? It's such an interesting space to be in, right? Because if we're creating, like giving people their first safe, it's a big space we're holding in our clients' lives, right? And so in cuddling, I've always looked at professional cuddling as being like a massage therapist and you can keep it.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (21:24.178)

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:34.473)

going to your massage therapist as long as you want, there doesn't need to be like an end date to your work and an expiration like in surrogate partner therapy, we have a cutoff, right? Once we hit our goals, it's really important that we follow through with kind of a breakup in a way to push the client out of the nest, right? So when I'm not working in my head,

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (21:39.787)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (21:47.341)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (21:52.877)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:02.045)

Sergant partner therapy has traditionally been around kind of romantic relationships and things like that. I come in with this real fascination with the re-parenting side of the work and holding a lot of motherly space.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (22:15.532)

Uh-huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:17.265)

Now I'm going, okay, but does that work need to have an end date so that the client takes that away, like learns to really build those skills to put them to work with another person and not with the professional?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (22:33.268)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I think there's an end date and then there's end moments to kind of play off that or just like, you know, boundaries within the container where, you know, I may have, you know, a motherly role to you, but I'm not your mom sort of thing or like, you know, or, you know, it's something that we talk about with some of our clients here where, you know, let's say we see them once a week and we talk about in between session contact.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:52.505)

Right. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:06.017)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (23:06.07)

And, you know, everyone, every therapist has their own beliefs, their own kind of boundaries around that. But I think that's another way where we can have the ending, you know, where the ending is at the end of the 50 minutes. And you can contact me, you can email me if you want, you can text me. And I let them know I may not respond, but I will bring it up in session. And I let them talk to me about times when they're, you know, maybe they did wish that I was.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:25.641)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (23:34.89)

available on that Monday when they were dealing with whomever. And maybe they are, they do have some anger around that. And I let them express that anger and I'm not going to take it in. I'm not going to apologize for not being there, but I'm going to meet that emotion and meet that disappointment. I think that's another part of the reparenting process, you know, kind of allowing them to go through that. The ebbs and flows of emotions. Um, so yeah, I'm totally with you that like, you know, there needs to be an ending both in like the final.

And that's also in the States and Western cultures, we don't really do well. We're not really well-versed or well-modeled in goodbyes or healthy endings. And that's why I talk about that with clients. This is a good practice space where we can practice saying goodbye. And so, yeah, I don't know if I'm answering your question.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:14.058)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:21.141)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:25.017)

Yeah, no, I don't know if there's a question. It's like a almost like a this needs to be kind of workshopped out in a way of like, where is the where does the benefit that the biggest benefit, when does that start to become diminished? Right?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him)

Yeah, I mean, I think so, you know, the reparenting piece, it's like giving them these new experiences to go through and then it's helping them with their own attachment styles, with their own shame to be like in that moment and experience that and then reflect with you about what's going on.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:28.069)

Again, I think the team component of this is imperative. Like it really, I think that I don't think that everyone always understands, like, why, why do we need to have, I talked to you, Michelle, you're, it's like going to the talk therapy. No, it's not. It's not the same. I am a good listener. I'll toot my own horn there. But to have somebody holding this whole relationship from a bird's eye view to say, okay,

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (26:31.882)

Yep. Got it. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (26:44.523)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (26:47.758)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:57.445)

I see some stuff happening here. We need to talk about your feelings. I think it's just so important. And so.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (27:00.515)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (27:06.438)

Yeah, and to get that like recognition and awareness that a lot of us didn't get growing up. Like, hey, I see you're going through something. Let's talk about it. Let's give some space to it. Let's. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:15.517)

Mm-hmm. But so I have that you to process it as a you as in the clinician to have that space to process what comes up in session with me. Right. Like I can see it, but I'm not I'm not going to touch a lot of that. That's outside of my purview. Right. Yeah. When I say like, Oh, I see this client like really is doing this kind of I don't want to call it manipulative, but they've got an agenda.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (27:22.336)

Mmm, that's good to know.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (27:26.318)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (27:32.918)

Right, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (27:43.374)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:45.825)

to see where they can push the boundaries of your relationship, right? I certainly can address it, but it's so much more powerful to have them also get to go back to the talk therapist and the talk therapist to say, hey, let's talk about this some more. Where do you think that comes from? Do you see a pattern here? How can we collaborate to kind of heal that in a way?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (28:06.576)

Yep.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (28:15.521)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:15.869)

why you're drawn to that dual relationship or whatnot.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (28:19.48)

Hmm?

Yeah. And the create that safe space where they can talk about the shameful parts that are coming out around that, or, you know, what parts of them were kind of being manipulative or, um, yeah. And bringing it to the surface around that. Yeah. And the triadic model works really well just because of that, like consistent contact and wraparound support. And, you know, the, I know the client feels it, you know, the client feels the care of having.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:28.06)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:32.234)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:35.742)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:42.099)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:47.517)

Have you been able to work triadically?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (28:50.318)

Very briefly, it didn't last too long, but, you know, we've done...

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:51.425)

Hmm. Yeah. It doesn't have to last long. That's an interesting part. I have had times where I've met with a client one time and been able to go back and report back to their talk therapist of my experience. And there's just so much information that I'm able to glean because of the way I'm able to connect with the client, especially now that we have so much telehealth happening. Like.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (28:57.225)

Mmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (29:02.896)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (29:13.142)

cool.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (29:19.244)

Uh huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:20.657)

Sometimes I'm the first in-person contacts and the therapist is like, so what is the person actually like in person? Cause I've only ever met them over Zoom or what have you. So I get to kind of be a reporter in a sense of like reporting my experience and how they engaged with me. And sometimes that's enough to go, okay, I see where they are. They're not actually ready to move forward with this kind of work. Let's circle back later.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (29:23.754)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (29:29.157)

Uh huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (29:46.462)

Uh huh. Yep.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:49.133)

So I don't think there's a longevity says whether something was successful or not. It's like, I think so much data can be gleaned even with a single session. So, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (29:54.856)

Got it.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (30:02.038)

Yeah. Right. And I mean, that's a really important kind of assessment, too, of saying, like, now is not the right time. There's there's some other work to be done before we can. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:13.937)

Yeah, in my work a lot of times people show up because they think that it's just a simple sex problem.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (30:19.886)

Uh huh. Be nice. Yeah. Right.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:22.721)

It's just about my dick. So I say this and I'm gonna publicly hope that this presentation gets picked, but I did put in an AASECT abstracts that is titled, I did it with my, I presented it with, or I submitted it with my colleague, Brian Gibney, entitled, It's Not About Your Dick, What Clinicians Can Learn From Surrogate Partner Therapy. Right? Like.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (30:42.839)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:53.229)

let's talk about the foundational stuff that seems to show up that is connected to the sexual dysfunction issues and get everybody on board because yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (31:06.942)

Yeah. I have a talk that I give to, um, like local training centers for early career clinicians and, um, probably do it for other therapists too, but it's called, uh, querying sex therapy beyond functioning and how, you know, a lot of people come to sex therapy, you know, because of functioning or they think of sex therapy as just a functioning thing, but there's a lot more to it than just getting your dick up. And so, you know, um,

Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:29.493)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:33.088)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (31:35.146)

Yeah, I'm really glad that you're, I hope they should choose it. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:38.913)

I hope they do. We came off a pretty great year at the 2023 conference we got to present. I had a case presentation on surrogate partner therapy and we had, I'm the co-chair of the Somatic Sexuality Professional Special Interest Group. So we also had a presentation just about working with touch workers in general. So we have some momentum that hopefully we can ride in with again this year and get some more.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (31:53.25)

I don't know, cool.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (31:57.036)

Thanks.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (32:06.166)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:06.233)

spotlighted attention on what we can do in this work. But, uh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (32:12.29)

How do you talk to therapists about the legalities or to their concerns or their anxieties about the legalities of it?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:18.605)

Mm-hmm sure Well, well one

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (32:25.226)

I just say no one's been persecuted, but that doesn't really help it.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:26.449)

It's so complicated. Yeah, nobody's been prosecuted. I say the biggest thing you can run into is more so it being inappropriate for certain clients. Like the only lawsuit I've ever heard of was a therapist that got sued. This was not legality stuff, right? It was more of a liability lawsuit, I think. They tried to do surrogate partner therapy with a married couple. And in the end they divorced.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (32:36.726)

Mmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:56.069)

in the injured party blamed the surrogate partner and the therapist, which, yeah, we don't take a monogamous couple and introduce a form of non-monogamy because even if it didn't get physical as far as erotic contact, the emotional intimacy that happens in that space is would be really disruptive to most monogamous couples. So...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (33:09.099)

Uh-huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (33:17.91)

Right. That's a good point.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:21.173)

Most of my work is not is leaning away from the erotic side of the work. So it's a complicated question for me to answer. In traditional surrogate partner therapy, it's there's no exchange direct exchange for money for sexual contact. Because it's not a guaranteed part of the work. It's really a decision that comes down to all three, the therapist, the

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (33:38.915)

Mmm, got it.

Right.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:48.217)

surrogate partner and the client deciding that it's the best route. So it gets away from that direct exchange. Here's $50 and I get a blow job or you know like that. Yeah, and for me I just feel like I'm moving farther and farther away from it because it's a long time to hold sexual energy with a client.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (33:51.947)

Uh-huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:19.249)

And I'm finding that to be the hardest part of the work for me. I love engaging with people in platonic intimacy. I love it. I could do that all day. I love the space that I started in, right? It just goes back to me being a professional cuddler first. And the thing is, I think there's certain cases that probably do need erotic contacts, but I feel like most of them don't.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (34:19.266)

Ciao!

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (34:38.349)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (34:49.395)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:51.478)

And as somebody who works with primarily cis men, they only come to the work because there's a problem happening in the bedroom. And so they can't fathom that we would do work that didn't include erotic work. My dick isn't working right. Clearly we need to touch my dick. And I'm like, I don't want to touch your dick. I want to help you.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (35:00.62)

Oh, shit.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (35:07.662)

Right.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:19.457)

queer your sex, we can do that without actually getting into a sexual space, right? And I think I'm just, I'm matching what is alive for me personally in making my work kind of fit what's working. I also figured out I don't experience sexual attraction. I'm on the asexual spectrum. This is a new thing I'm learning about myself. And when I think back to how I've engaged in sex over the years.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (35:24.727)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:47.305)

Between that and the fact that I am deeply, deeply in the responsive desire camp, sex is a lot of work. And I don't know that I can get paid enough.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (35:53.264)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (36:01.385)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:01.813)

to make that work and especially over a long period of time. It's not about the client. It's really a lot about me meeting my own, like what do I need to stay mentally healthy? And I just feel a need to pull away from that side of the work more.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (36:20.918)

Yeah, I talked to a surrogate once who we were talking about therapy, therapists and surrogates. And he was like, yeah, you could, to me, you could see four or five, six clients a day. I could not. And I was like, yeah, absolutely not. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:32.281)

Mm-mm. Yeah, that is a big, it's a big part of it. Yeah, it's hard. My last client that I finished in surrogate parter therapy was almost two years of work. And I would say we were in erotic for the last year of it. That's a lot. And I adore him. He's a lovely, lovely person. I love spending time with him. But if I had known...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (36:46.262)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (36:51.69)

Uh huh. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:02.121)

that kind of energy expenditure, I don't know that I would have signed up for that. And we did great work together. I'm so satisfied in some ways. And also just looking at myself and going, how sustainable is this, Michelle? It's real. So the question of legality is, it's not illegal anywhere in the United States.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (37:17.676)

That's a real yeah. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (37:26.262)

I hear that so much when I bring it up in my talks. They're like, but what if, am I gonna lose my license? Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:27.892)

Mm-hmm.

What if things go wrong? Well, yeah, I think we talk a lot about how licensing works and that usually you're gonna get a warning of some sort and always keep like meticulous notes, right? Justify why this was decided to be the best course of action. Get supervision, right? Have those kinds of trails that you've not taken this lightly.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (37:47.158)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (37:55.352)

Oh yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (37:59.074)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:59.857)

And I think it's really, really powerful. It really shakes up the client's progress or the stalled. If they're stalled out, I think it's a really good thing to shake it up and be a really engaged therapist. Right? Like I've.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (38:13.742)

Buh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (38:21.622)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:23.525)

I've had the therapist said, don't want to be super engaged in it. And then it's like, well, wait a minute. No, this isn't separate. This is together. This isn't Michelle goes and does her thing and you guys do your thing. And you know that it's what's happening over here because I'm telling you but you're not actually engaged in it. Like I want, I think this is the shift between what used to be called supervising surrogate partner therapy where the

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (38:30.993)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. This is the work. Yeah Right

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (38:42.709)

Uh huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (38:49.955)

Hmm

Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:50.941)

the clinician was seen as a supervisor that kind of gave directions to the surrogate. Yeah. And now I think the surrogate comes in with a lot of their own kind of education and background that it needs to be more level as far as like not a hierarchy between the professionals. So I think there's just a big evolution happening in this field. And I'm probably

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (38:56.53)

Oh, interesting. Huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (39:05.602)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (39:09.109)

I agree.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:17.653)

I hesitate to go as far as branding myself the asexual surrogate partner, but...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (39:23.81)

Catch you.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:27.746)

It's right around the corner. I'm telling you, I just keep inching closer and closer to just being like, there's so much power here. If I can get the therapist to understand the opportunity that is held in this collaborative process and see that it's not about the sex, then it becomes less, I think, risky to a lot of therapists. They don't think of it

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (39:29.656)

Uh-huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (39:47.47)

Mmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:53.473)

quite as risky because if the sexual component isn't part of the work, maybe they could settle into it a little easier and then start to learn what can be achieved in that collaboration. I got ideas, you know, like...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (40:04.938)

Right. Yeah. Yeah, good. No, you were you were saying also reminded me of when I talked to one of my friends who does psychedelic assisted therapy and he says that their biggest concern for getting kind of outed or for getting, you know, getting caught up in the legal issues is rarely over the client themselves, but it's the partner of the client who's changing and the partner doesn't want them to change.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:31.189)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (40:33.918)

or is threatened by the change or, you know.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:34.112)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I don't know, I mean that could happen in regular talk therapy too, right? But is that a space where it's been normalized that change is going to happen and in that it's not such a blame game?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (40:40.782)

Totally. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (40:48.858)

ish. I think there may be, maybe for the psychedelic piece, there's this idea that it's, and it can be transformational, but there's the idea that's always transformational, that there's, you're gonna come, you're gonna go in, my, you know, my partner's gonna go in, have some transformational experience, realize that I shouldn't be abusing them, and then they're gonna leave me, and that's the, you know.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:08.862)

Yeah.

Yeah, I am so.

I prefer to work with people that are not partnered. I mean, if I could only work with people not partnered, I might be a yes to that, but also like maybe not, I don't know, but I do do, I kind of like, when people come to me and they're partnered and I'm just gonna be working with one of them, which is, I definitely rarely ever do actual couples work. I like trying to talk them out of working with me. Like it's almost that level of informed consent.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (41:40.814)

Mmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:44.805)

of like, do you understand even showing up to do cuddling with me? And I'm going to help empower you to have your voice. I'm going to help you understand why it's really important to have a no because I can't trust your yes until I've heard it. I can't get close to you if I don't know that it's there. And especially if you come to me and you're...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (41:47.042)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (42:03.37)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:08.509)

kind of the doormat of the relationship. And then you come out of here and you start going, oh wait, I need to be more authentic in my responses. It's not, you know, I'm really butting up against resentment and all these things. And you've been married for a couple decades.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (42:11.619)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (42:23.414)

Hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:28.609)

you're gonna want to get a couples counselor on board for this real quick, right? And so, so I will sit down and I'm like, okay, you've got a, you've got a penis problem. First, first question is, do you think you have to have sex with me? Is that part of this? No? Okay, great. Maybe we can work together, right? And then it's like, okay, but does your, does your partner know you're going to be working with me? Well, no, she just told me I need to get

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (42:30.611)

I am. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (42:47.086)

Thank you.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (42:53.123)

I don't know, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:58.341)

Okay, do you understand that you cannot spend time with me and not leave different? Like it's just I haven't, I don't know anybody that doesn't become a little bit more like me, right? And so it's like one of these, do you really know what you're consenting to? Why don't you just think about this? And a lot of times I never come back and I'm, I'd much rather have that than have the opposite of like the partner showing up at my door going...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (42:59.458)

plausible deniability.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (43:12.142)

Uh huh, yeah, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (43:18.049)

Right.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:27.817)

What did you do to my husband or girlfriend or whatever, right? Like, yeah, change is hard for people.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (43:29.719)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (43:36.054)

Yeah, it can be really scary. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:38.697)

Yeah, even when your marriage ends, I can go, well, that's ultimately you're going to think this was the best thing, right? Right now, probably doesn't feel so sure, right? Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (43:45.621)

Uh-huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (43:49.75)

Absolutely, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:53.861)

Yeah. It's the downside of like changing people's lives. Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (44:00.394)

Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that's coming to mind is, I see this a lot with guys, but, um, this idea that they've, they've been brought into therapy to get fixed and that there's something wrong with them to, to adjust or to fix or, and they understandably when, when they have that idea that, um, they're very guarded and defended and, you know, untrusting, which I'm like, yeah, of course, why would you, um, and for me, I'm like, no, we're not here to fix you. We're here to.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:24.874)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (44:29.878)

help you understand yourself, where you get to understand yourself. You get to understand all the wild things that are going on in your body and your mind and how they're connected and not, you know, all that stuff. And try to add some excitement to this learning process rather than like, Oh, fuck, I got to learn about myself. I got to learn about my emotions. I got to learn how to communicate and, um, and like working with that inner critic that can pop in of like, Oh, this is stupid, or I'm not going to be able to do this. Or I sound too Californian.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:49.664)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (44:59.154)

or whatever it may be, you know, that's a big part of the work, as you know, is like working with that inner critic and letting them know, trying to find strategies to help them quiet the inner critic or something I said earlier today was tell your inner critic to wait outside while you're while you're practicing this new thing. Easier said than done, but just practice saying, you wait outside while I do this. You're not welcome in here.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:17.844)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and when they show up, just exit them again. It's kind of like I say, it's like meditation. When your mind wanders, just come back. It's okay, just remind them that they can go and come back, yeah. Oh, so it's easier said than done, but yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (45:26.666)

Yep. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (45:35.86)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (45:41.459)

Right and I repeat that over and over again. It's easier said than done, but worth trying. Let's see. Yeah Yep

Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:45.433)

Yeah, it's just practice, just practice. I think the scarier thing in the growth trajectory is when you know things have to change at home or wherever and processing that and all of, you know, broken promises and all of that.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (45:58.7)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (46:08.138)

Yeah, and boundaries with yourself, you know, around, you know, communication or boundaries with showing up or not showing up or, you know, resilience, you know, is often thought of as just like taking whatever is thrown at you when in reality it's like knowing your capacity and knowing your boundaries, knowing your knowing how to communicate them.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:10.954)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:30.781)

Yeah, being able like that's something that I practice in space with clients is like having them start to be able to identify when they feel that full. Right? Like capacity is so different for everyone. So then they're like, well, how long should our sessions be? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what your capacity is. Right? We've got to be able to start to practice honoring it. Like, it's a it's a question that I've said repeated a few times, somebody asked us on me and Brian give me my

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (46:47.415)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:00.265)

work husband who I make all my professional babies with. Somebody asked us like, how do people figure out what they want in life? Right? And it's like, well, you got to figure out the little stuff first. Right? So if you can't name that you need to use the bathroom and then go take yourself to the bathroom and not put it off.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (47:10.513)

Uh huh, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:18.805)

How are you going to do other things? So in that, like learning what your capacity is and building your capacity, part of that building the capacity is teaching your body that it can trust you to stop when you are full. That's part of the work. And sometimes because I get a lot of really growth oriented people sometimes where they're like, but I had this thing, I need to get to the thing, I should be able to do this. Why can't I, especially in touch, right? I'm here to...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (47:42.069)

Right.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:45.817)

overcome my aversion to touch. And I'm like, well, we're not going to overcome it by you ignoring that aversion to touch. There's, there's alarms going off in your system, right? There's a reason why you have an aversion to touch. And until we rebuild your personal like safety, the your inner child knowing that you're going to take care of you. There's your if you're blowing through it.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (47:47.)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (47:53.294)

Right? Just barreling through.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (48:07.864)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:12.169)

we're not gonna make any progress. We're just gonna stay still. So, yeah. Yeah, so it goes back to the, back to the, the Reparenting by Committee is like, I think of my spot as like the laboratory to experiment where you're not experimenting with another person. Like in, in the sense of like a, a friend or somebody who doesn't.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (48:16.15)

Yeah, or make it worse by pushing through, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (48:25.966)

Mm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (48:35.734)

Uh huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:41.753)

either know they're being experimented with or they have their own stuff, right? So you have a chemical reaction that can happen because one person's trigger is, you know, just bouncing back and forth, right? And so to get a little space to get to do a baseline reset of what can it feel, what can it feel like to be with someone who's not.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (49:02.798)

Uh-huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:09.649)

also responding with their triggers and can really encourage you to do the scary things like saying no and advocating for yourself and that it doesn't have to be a scary event like maybe it was in your childhood or.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (49:11.842)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (49:25.982)

Yeah, we just did a men's retreat two weekends ago where talked a little bit about reparenting by committee and about trust. And I had them go through and write down people they trust, what they trust them for and why. And like really breaking it down and then so a so they know but then also it can help them think about the other areas of their life that they can trust. And, you know, it ranged from like, I go to this friend for financial advice because they seem to be doing well or

you know, and so what it seemed like it came up with was, either they have good experience in it, or when I'm talking to them about this, they're not shaming me, they're not being shitty about it. And then this happened in the retreat where guys started to open up about some things that they had a little bit of shame around, and they've been holding since they were, you know, young. And then we were like, oh yeah, that's understandable. And just that like lived experience of not being

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:24.349)

Like, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (50:25.09)

Pointed in the humiliated or whatever is super fucking healing man. It's like yeah, it goes a long way Yeah

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:31.805)

It's the reprocessing, right? And that's all these different, there's so many different ways to get the opportunity to reprocess, whether it's that journal exercise of writing the same story four times. I know that's exactly what's happening is they're just doing memory reconsolidation, right? Like I get that, like I took a class on memory reconsolidation and I'm like, oh yeah, this is totally what happens in this space, in this space, in this space. Like...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (50:39.596)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (50:46.978)

Uh huh.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (50:56.558)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:57.585)

Yes, that's what's going on in EMDR. Yes, this is what's going on in IFS. Yes, that's what's going on in cuddle space even. Like it's have a, I think that the simple formula for it was something like a regulated nervous system and you add just a little bit of activation and then your knowing or what did they call it? The mismatch system comes on and says, wait a minute, this isn't how my...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (51:03.339)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (51:25.826)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:25.913)

subcordial brain thinks this is supposed to go, but you're in this special little spot where you've got enough regulation that you can actually make that connection of like, oh, wait, that's my three year old's idea of how the world works. Not my, as I would say like wise adults and like the relational life therapy world. I've touched on so many different little like niches in the talk therapy space.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (51:36.396)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (51:41.771)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (51:48.595)

Uh huh, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:53.189)

It's just fun to look at it now from that kind of angle of like, oh, we're just doing lots of different ways to do memory reconsolidation.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (51:59.874)

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's a good process, right? Just for the very reason, you know, we have one practitioner here at Rouse who does brain spotting. Yeah. And I

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:02.177)

Finding what works.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:12.109)

I love brain spotting. Oh my goodness. And I would love to sit, I should sit down with somebody who does brain spotting and EMDR to say, help me understand the difference because I've walked out of brain spotting, which I've had, I have never had EMDR. I've been in the space where it was being done as like a demo, the space where it was being done as a demo felt so activating. Like I was just watching it and like all of us in the room are like in tears. Like we're in it with this person.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (52:22.679)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (52:37.486)

Hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (52:41.198)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:41.233)

It felt really activating where the brain spotting, every time I've left a brain spotting session, I have felt on top of the world. And I don't know if that's just my experience, but I've just been like, I could have a shot of that on the regular.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (52:48.366)

Mmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (52:56.394)

Yeah. I had, yeah, I've done brain spotting three times with my therapist around a particular trauma that I went through two years ago. And yeah, I was like floored because the first time I did it, it was like in the middle of my work day. And just to say that like I was kind of in my work mind kind of just kind of get through my list.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:20.353)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (53:25.022)

And I was able to really just like sink into the emotions, sink into the moment. You know, within a few 10 minutes, I was in tears in a very relieving sort of way, not in a bad way. And by the end of it, yeah, I wasn't on top of the world, but I definitely felt more resourced. And I felt like I had more access to the parts of myself that could advocate for myself or that, you know, that felt more in control and less like helpless.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:33.671)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:51.069)

Maybe clarity. Like a sense of clarity. For me, a sense of clarity gives me a sense of control and power and yeah. I had the wildest, my father passed away a couple of years ago in September. And it was one of those things where it was not the worst thing that's happened to me for sure. It was a relief in some many ways. In fact, I describe it as feeling like a cloak.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (53:52.844)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (53:58.186)

Hmm

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (54:05.486)

Mm. Sorry.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (54:14.094)

same. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:19.557)

of labels fell off of me. Like I walked out of, like, I dropped the cloak and just walked forward and was like relieved of a lot of things I thought about myself that were really based on like him. In a lot of ways. So fast forward, I was in love with aqua aerobics and I was taking this really great water class and it's in the deep water and I get there early. I always have my corner and I have a friend that's in the other corner and we're shooting the shit back and forth across the pool waiting for class to start.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (54:20.959)

Hmm

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (54:26.029)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (54:31.552)

Uh-huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:49.425)

And I'd heard stories of this man that would show up at class, but not be in the class, but would refuse to get out of the pool. And then he would harass the instructor and cuss her out while he paced behind her around the pool. Like, I heard this happen a couple of times, and it was never there when it happened. So of course, I'm sitting there, I'm swimming there, and whatever, I'm floating. And this guy swims down the lane of my friend's lane and runs into her.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (55:02.455)

Wow.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (55:10.698)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:19.153)

And I looked at her across the floor, I go, what the hell is that? And she was, that's that dude. And I was like, oh, no, he didn't. Right. And I swim over, I get like 10 feet ahead of her. And then one of our other mutual friends get in front of me about 10 feet. And the guy gets in the pool and they're like, oh, he's not going to come back down. I go, no, I think he is. This guy seems like from his story is pretty entitled. Right. So he comes swimming back down. He runs into the lady in front of me and gets all in her shit.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (55:40.782)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:46.277)

And I just start screaming at him that he needs to get out of the pool. And like, I'm like, fuck you. Like, I'm just like, because people that work there can't do this. Right. And I am just like, I'm in a pool full of older women. And I'm like, I am going to like empower them all to like take a stand. Cause I'm going to tell this guy off. Like he's every man in their life. Right. And, um, the, the manager met him at the stairs.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (55:56.662)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (56:06.562)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:13.397)

to escort him out afterwards. But I was just like, I was chanting, get out, get out. Like all this stuff, like just, I was probably, I kind of was like a lunatic in a way. But that's not how I saw it. So fast forward, I'm in a meeting with some colleagues and there's a therapist in the space that does brain spotting.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (56:27.11)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:38.049)

And something came up and I don't remember what it was, but I felt the rush of feelings come up. And I went, oh my goodness, I've got things I need to do deal with this. And I'd already skipped a class because I got this fear hit me like the next week where I went, oh God, this guy's going to show up. He's an injured white male. He's going to come shoot the, but you know what I mean? I did the whole thing. So I said to the therapist, I said,

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (56:48.514)

Hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (57:01.288)

Uh... Sure.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:05.905)

Is there any chance I could get a one off with you? I've just got this specific thing I need to work through. And she was like, yeah, we did probably 45 minutes, right? Whatever the usual therapy hour is, right? And I went into it knowing, like I'd already processed it a bit of like, my father was the first man I was afraid of. This dude is just an extension of that, where I got to let out all the feelings I had about my father. I came into it kind of knowing all of that.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (57:08.413)

Mm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (57:25.454)

Hmm... Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (57:33.102)

Uh huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:34.369)

But in the end, I took off the rest of the day. I assumed I would be dead to the world the rest of the day, clear the schedule, make this the last thing I have to do. And it wasn't like that. By the time I got done, I felt so like it was like a clearing of just a lot of negativity that just needed to go away. So good. I'm a big fan. Long story. I'm a really big fan of brain spotting.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (57:50.606)

Good.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (57:55.182)

Good. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (58:00.902)

Yeah, no, it's great. No, yeah, I mean, that's, that was a big reason why after my personal experience, I was, we already had a provider here who was interested in it. But after my personal experience, I'm like, we need to bring this in here. And so I've like immediately set up the for the training to happen so that they could be, you know, training Marjorie is wonderful at it. And she's already incredibly trained at working with trauma and survivors of intimate partner violence. And so it just seemed like a really perfect fit, you know.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:12.753)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:28.205)

Yeah, what a great addition. I hope to one day be involved in a practice here in San Diego where it's such a lovely wrap around of options, where I am just one of the options as part of a bigger team, right? Like that's put it out in the universe. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. Yeah. Awesome.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (58:37.76)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (58:45.51)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:52.585)

Any part of that, to go back to, keep going back to the Complex PTSD, any part of that book that was really like your favorite part of it that sticks out to you?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (59:01.414)

Yeah, I mean, the reparenting one definitely stands out to me. The inner critic, the, what I call the inner critic and outer critic is like talk with siblings. And it's been something that I've been talking about with clients around just judginess and, um, but I'm gonna start using the critic language more because I think judginess doesn't sit well with some, but yeah. Um, but yeah, I really like the just

Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:09.365)

Yep.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:21.397)

Hmm. We have a negative connotation to it for sure. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (59:30.174)

You know, what I would say is essentially, you know, when you're judging others, you're also judging yourself, or, you know, when you're judging yourself, then you'll probably notice that your judgment or criticism of others are probably gonna be very high and of the same ilk, and that, you know, these two, the inner critic and outer critic are toxic siblings. And so just catch yourself in those moments to really understand where they're coming from.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:38.6)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (59:59.402)

and why you're doing it and for the why, I take some of the therapy language out of it by saying, you end up kind of playing a different game in life when you're just constantly criticizing yourself and others. There's more of like a transactional game that you're playing, more of a competitive, but not in a fun way where like no one ever wins, no one ever is succeeding except, the ones that you're idealizing.

Like what other games can we introduce into your life? What's another way of succeeding in life rather than getting to the top? So it doesn't really address the critic directly. It's more of like a sideways way of getting to the critic and hopefully increasing their own agency or self advocacy with like, oh wait, no, I wanna play a different game. I don't wanna play.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:36.171)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:49.345)

Yeah, the critic came into play, if I recall, in the area where they're talking about verbal ventilation, at least that's the spot I'm remembering the loudest, because I think it was like, oh, permission to verbally ventilate inside the boundaries of not allowing the critic to show up, right? That you have to just talk about, like, how you feel, but not, like, self-deprecation, you know, the...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:00:56.267)

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:01.771)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:07.371)

Right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:13.654)

that judge it. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:16.957)

without the self-judgment. Yeah, I really liked that. And the other part I really loved is all the permission he gave for tears.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:18.529)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:24.043)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:26.393)

wow, like that was one of those things I've had to go through that process myself of learning to love my tears. Like it was a process to let them even show up to begin with. And then it was, gosh, why can't you just show up when it's convenient? Right? This is not the time to have these tears show up, right? To getting to the point of like, oh no, this is...

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:36.296)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:47.18)

Uh-huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:51.913)

this is good to have these tears and this is just moving this stuff along, right? And so I really loved that, that area of the book of just giving all the, like the, not even just permission, but the importance of the grief and the tears and washing that away. And yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:01:56.04)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:02:07.523)

Go.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:02:11.33)

Yeah, and then just how we broke down just the, not the stages of grief, but just the necessary parts of grief. Like you're saying crying and angering. Really helpful framework to talk about that. You know, it's ventilating so that people, especially because in the States, in Western society, like grieving is very much looked down upon. We're supposed to just kind of carry on, you know, and move on. Right.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:25.13)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:35.229)

You get three days as it was mentioned on a episode I just recorded the other day with a colleague that likes to work in grief. And we're just talking about how we just don't have a good framework for like, we don't know how we're supposed to grieve. Right. And we're not given much of an opportunity to really get into it. We're supposed to like bypass it.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:02:42.462)

Uh, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:02:49.783)

Yum.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:02:55.818)

Yeah. And so I appreciated the way that he really normalized and like just broke it down. I'm like, no, it's okay. And I mean, that's a big part of the work that I do is helping them understand when grief is showing up and that it's not just about death. That's about lots of, lots of losses.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:12.537)

We run into it in my work when people realize what they haven't experienced. Right. They get to a certain age in life and maybe they finally seek some support. And then there's this grieving of lost time.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:03:21.823)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:03:26.49)

Right. Yeah. Like what could have been different or, you know, something like that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:27.393)

to you.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:32.957)

There's a lot lots of options but yeah for sure. Oh we've

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:03:34.399)

Yep. Yes.

And I just, yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a very accessible book. And so I recommend the book to clients and, um, and I say, you know, come back and we'll talk about it and see what came up for you and we'll learn.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:43.743)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:50.437)

I've recommended it to some of my colleagues as required reading if you're working in relational work. I just think it's, I think that people think of complex PTSD as being something that is, I must have been in some kind of extreme situation, right? And I think that helping people understand that even just only a certain kind of nurturing, like your bare minimum.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:03:57.133)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:04:09.793)

Right.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:04:19.317)

know, taking yes, you're alive kind of thing, but maybe you weren't emotionally nurtured or like those can all show up under that same kind of umbrella. I love in the beginning of the book, I think you said something like if you went to the DSM-5 and you took all the things that

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:04:24.045)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:04:29.39)

for the win.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:04:40.046)

Oh. Ha ha ha.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:04:42.441)

And I was like, yeah, that sounds about right. But yeah. Well, David, we've hit an hour. I always say I'm not going to turn this into the Joe Rogan show where I end up with three hour interviews, although it would be really easy for me to do that with some people. Is there anything that we touched? I know you've had some ideas that you lost. Did any of them come back?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:04:45.102)

Sounds right, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:04:49.886)

Cool.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:04:54.094)

There's three hours.

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:05:06.734)

They didn't come back. Yeah. Maybe this is not cock week. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:07.953)

Okay, well, if they come back, shoot me a message and let me know what they are, because I'm curious. But I wish you were in San Diego. Like, it would be great to have you in my community. Really, I run like happy hours and stuff. It's always great to have more great people in my community. But it's OK. You're in the Bay. You're close enough. We'll run across each other.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:05:16.994)

Me too.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:05:30.61)

Yeah, I think I'm sure there will be a time that I'll be coming down to San Diego in the next, I mean, probably next year. I'll come down to San Diego once. I'll let you know for sure. I'd love to meet up.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:38.749)

Yeah, let me know for sure. It'd be great to connect. Well, thanks for coming on. I'm gonna definitely have you on for soft cock week. If we're reading the same book, we can come on and chat about that. I'm currently in the big leap.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:05:47.735)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:05:52.73)

Sounds good, yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:05:57.478)

Oh cool. No.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:58.589)

Have you read that one? Oh, it's just like about like getting rid of limiting like what limits you unconsciously from like really being in your genius. And so that's kind of got me in my head thinking.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:06:13.118)

Yeah, I'm taking after the men's retreat. I'm just listening to like comedy podcasts or crime podcasts, or I'm just taking a break because I love months leading up to it. I was just, but this Friday we have Midori coming on, coming to our office to do like a consult with other therapists. And so I'm kind of preparing for that. Yeah, I'm really excited about that. But then after that, I will go back to my. Bad TV.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:06:34.785)

I saw that. That's great.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:06:42.654)

and comedy podcasts just for a break, just for, you know.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:06:46.101)

Thank you. I do that too. I, you know, people, what do you watch? Just some shit TV to consciously dissociate for a little while. Yeah. Absolutely. Auto, auto-regulate, I think is what I was listening to. I was doing a little like, um, crunching for a client and I was re-listening to Polysecure chapter nine on self or secure attachment to self. It's one of my favorite chapters and

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:06:54.902)

Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:07:12.462)

Uh huh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:07:14.693)

And I was starting to go, oh yeah, I auto regulate a lot. For sure. I do Golden Girls is my comedy side just throw my what I like to do is also comedy, but I tend to go Golden Girls is my go to so feel free if you need it in a quick 15 minute fix, like it totally changes my mood. Dorothy's most savage moments on YouTube will solve a lot of things. It is my secret weapon.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:07:17.869)

Uh huh, yeah.

But yeah, I'd love to come on.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:07:29.183)

That's a great one. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:07:38.894)

I'm reading that down.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:07:44.366)

That show was my go-to in middle school and high school.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:07:44.533)

So.

Yeah, I used to watch it all the time when it was a regular coming out every week, Saturday night show or whatever it was. I did not get the nuances of how powerful that show was then. But watching it now is like it's pretty great still. All right, David, where can people find you online?

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:07:57.366)

Right. Yeah.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:08:05.75)

Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. Yeah. Yep, we are at Rouse Relational Wellness. It's rousetherapy.com or any of the social media channels at Rouse Therapy, R-O-U-S-E. And we offer a variety of different therapy services, all focused on couples and sex therapy, including workshops and retreats and group therapy. And we service people in San Francisco and all over California. So yeah.

Come check us out. We also just have a ton of free information in our blog section for you to look through and learn.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:08:35.774)

Mmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:08:41.633)

Cool. Well, I love a good resource. So thanks, David. It was so good to get to a little extra time with you and let's stay in touch. All right.

David Khalili, LMFT (he/him) (01:08:42.786)

Yeah. Cool. Thank you, Michelle.

Yeah, please.

Michelle Renee

Michelle Renee (she/her) based in San Diego, is dedicated to helping clients discover their true Self. From her personal journey, Michelle knows that love heals. Michelle has combined her 8+ years of experience as both a cuddle therapist and a surrogate partner to create a hybrid form of somatic relational repair. She affectionately welcomes clients into her Human Connection Lab, where she supports them in relational healing through experiential touch, unconditional positive regard, celebrated agency, and authentic connection. Learn more at HumanConnectionCoach.com

She is also the creator of SoftCockWeek.com and the host of The Intimacy Lab Podcast, available on your favorite podcast app.

https://MeetMichelleRenee.com

A Conversation with David Khalili, MA, LMFT

Rough Transcript

Nikita Fernandes, MHC-LP - Psychotherapist and Sex Therapist

Grace Heer and Healing and Grief