Grace Heer and Healing and Grief
In this conversation, Michelle Renee and Grace Heer discuss the power of vulnerability and deep connection. They share personal experiences and insights on the importance of being authentic and open in relationships. They also explore the use of cards to deepen connections and create meaningful conversations. The conversation highlights the impact of vulnerability at events and the power of asking yourself what you need. They also discuss advice for mental health and self-care, as well as the process of figuring out what you want in life and listening to your body when making decisions. In this conversation, Michelle and Grace discuss the importance of exploring personal desires, taking care of mental health, recognizing the need for rest, listening to your body's signals, the importance of boredom and rest, balancing work and self-care, processing childhood experiences, and finding joy and self-care.
Grace Heer is a professional cuddler, cuddle event facilitator, life coach, and end-of-life doula in Orange, CA. You can learn more about her at GracefulCuddles.com or on Facebook and Instagram at Grace Heer, Coaching and Cuddling. Links are on her website.
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Intimacy Guide and Surrogate Partner. Michelle's website is https://meetmichellerenee.com and can be found on social media at @meetmichellerenee.
Takeaways
Take the time to explore your personal desires and what you truly want in the moment.
Prioritize your mental health and find small ways to make up for neglecting it.
Recognize the signs of needing rest and create white space in your schedule.
Listen to your body's signals and pay attention to what it needs.
Embrace boredom and rest as essential for rejuvenation and creativity.
Find a balance between work and self-care to avoid burnout.
Take the time to process and heal from childhood experiences.
Find joy in simple activities and prioritize self-care.
Remember to prioritize your own needs and take breaks when necessary.
If you’d like to ask a question, for Michelle to answer on an episode, click here.
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers, click here.
Links of note from today's episode:
36 Questions to Fall in Love
Kassandra Brown's Radical Listening
Terry Real's book Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship
Rough Transcript
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:02.765)
Welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. Today is a first and I'll tell you all about what that first is in a second. But we are joined with Grace Heer who is a gosh, I'm going to let her intro herself, but my connection to Grace is that we met through Cuddlist.com. We've both been with the organization for quite a few years and Grace lives just a little north of me. I'm in San Diego. Grace is in Orange County.
And Grace took my Disneyland virginity this fall. That was a fun day. I got to play, and my inner child was so freaking happy. I'm so glad, Grace, that you brought me to Disneyland, because I've struggled over the years with feeling happiness in my body. I would have to catch it in a reflection in the mirror and see myself and go, wow, Michelle, you look really happy right now. And in the space of
Being on the Incredibles roller coaster and being able to really be embodied in just pure joy was a touch, like a moment of like, wow, Michelle, you've come a long ways. Like there's some growth happening here in like as far as embodying, like feeling what's happening in my body and not just being a passenger of sorts. So thank you so much for that.
Grace, do you want to give us like your official intro? Who are you?
Grace Heer (01:32.087)
Sure. Who am I? Yeah. So my name is Grace. And I have been a Cuddlist since 2018, I think. January of 2019. I am a life coach. I provide platonic nurturing touch to people. I am a life coach. I provide platonic nurturing touch to people.
I have a, yeah, I work with people individually in groups, practicing consent boundaries and grief recovery practices. I love working with people in grief and holding them and holding space for them because we don't, our culture, I could go on for hours about this, our culture doesn't allow for grief.
When I was signing my mother into hospice, there was a social worker who was talking to us about it and she said, we live in a three-day society. You get three days off if you're lucky, five maybe, to take care of all the business and deal with a funeral or whatever your tradition is, and then you come back to work and you're expected to be fine. And you're not.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:56.009)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (02:58.122)
So I love holding space for people and like almost teaching them how to grieve, teaching them how to, and that sounds, I don't wanna sound pompous, but we don't know how to be with our feelings a lot. And grief has big feelings that come with it, sadness, anger, frustration, fear, all the things. So that's one of my,
passions is to provide that. So I am a certified event leader and professional cuddler. I'm master practitioner of neurolinguistic programming. I'm a co-active coach and I'm a certified end of life doula.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:49.733)
And just an overall just delightful human being. Like, let's drop that on top. And maybe it's our mutual experience in grief. Like, I think there's a level of grief a lot of people just haven't had to touch yet. And when you cross paths with a person that has held like really deep grief, like there's a sisterhood in that of sorts.
Grace Heer (03:53.398)
Aww, thank you.
Grace Heer (04:02.222)
Bye-bye.
Grace Heer (04:07.522)
Yes.
Grace Heer (04:17.798)
It's a club that everybody has to join, but nobody wants to. And so when you join the club, it can feel very isolating because we don't talk about the club. I think first rule of grief club is nobody talks about grief club. So when we're given permission to speak about it and to be present with it and to be with people who get it, and
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:22.414)
Nobody wants to know.
Grace Heer (04:48.606)
despite the fact that everyone's grief is different, there's a kinship.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:54.749)
Yeah. We'll probably end up talking about grief more. But we have a we have a job to do today. Right. So let me just set the stage for the listeners. If they're not on my Facebook, which you all are welcome to come follow me on Facebook. I only have a limited number of friends available, but anybody can follow me over there. So if you want the link, it's at me, Michelle, Rene, dot com. You can find me all over the place. But
Grace Heer (05:03.994)
Oh yes, let's get to it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:24.933)
I really love the game. We're not really strangers and I've played it on. I've played it. I haven't played the full game. I've answered questions with a lot of people on the podcast so far. I mean, we're only this, this is probably going to be episode. Eight is my guess. So it's not like we have big history here, but it feels big. I love these cards. I do them with clients. Sometimes it's a really interesting, sometimes like I've had one specific client I'm thinking of.
He loved an opportunity to talk about bigger things, deeper things, get to know each other better. And it wasn't something that came really naturally for him. And so these cards were like an invitation. He'd say at the beginning of a session, do you want to play some cards? Or he would say, I bought some different cards. You want to look at those? Like he had like a dating deck and we would play those cards instead of the cards that I brought. And it was just a...
part of our monthly sessions that was really bonding. It really brought us closer together. So we're not really strangers, had this like 40% off the entire website deal going, back around Black Friday, a little bit before then is when I got on it. But I went on and bought every card expansion, whatever, that I did, I only had the primary one. So I bought so many and I...
I put this picture on Facebook of all these expansions that I bought. And I said, thinking that I was kind of making a joke, anybody want to come on and record answering cards with me and all these people that are not professionals that are colleagues and used to being on podcasts. And I know, Grace, I don't know how many podcasts you've done. I remember hearing you on like the pro cuddle hustle.
but I haven't followed like your podcast journey. So you've at least done podcasts and I see you as a colleague and a pro and you might want to come on and talk about your work. I've got people that I've just barely crossed paths within my personal life that are raising their hand and putting themselves on my calendar. Cause I ended up just creating a calendar link for people to just go and sign up to do this. And I put it in my newsletter too. So.
Grace Heer (07:27.657)
Awesome.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:36.501)
Technically, if you're listening to this and you haven't had access to this link and you really want to come on and answer questions, hit me up. Shoot me an email, michelle at humanconnectioncoach.com. Let's do this because I'm all for experiments and this sounds like a really fun experiment. So Grace is the first one to get on the calendar as far as like order of who's showing up in front of me. This is the first one. So thanks, Grace, for being a sport about this.
Grace Heer (08:06.442)
Why not? I'm up for new things.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:07.485)
Why not? You know, when I first got divorced and eventually came out about the divorce, because we tried to settle the divorce before everybody found out so that we were really working with the two of us and not everybody's input coming into play, we held on to this really big life event for way longer than I really could. When I popped my top, I popped my top. It was not pretty. I wouldn't recommend.
Grace Heer (08:24.17)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:35.957)
compressing all of this and then not being able to hold it back anymore. So I shared a lot of really personal details about it. And I might have done it differently now. But what I loved about that is that people started to open up to me privately and share because I had been vulnerable first. And it kind of fed me in what brought me and ended up bringing me I think into the work that I do is this like, I see the power of being vulnerable.
of being authentic and sharing. And then like the 30 questions to fall in love hit the New York Times back in like 2015. And that was like a study showing that this vulnerable connection, if people answer these 30 questions on a date, they're much more likely to have a long-term relationship with this person because they bond over what's being shared. Instead of coming in with like this facade, it's like, let's dig a little deeper.
Grace Heer (09:26.574)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:34.217)
And then I took those questions to a group I used to run in Michigan called Sex Geekdom. And we sat down and tried to go through questions. And I was really surprised at how many people were like, oh, no, I'm not answering that. And these are questions like, tell us about where you grew up. Right. They're not like, tell us your deepest, darkest, you know, kink fantasy. It wasn't like that. It was like, what was your household like growing up?
Grace Heer (10:03.214)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:03.241)
you know, what was your experience? And it was just too vulnerable for some people. So I love this kind of stuff. I love the people that love this kind of stuff. And so Grace and I have decided to look at the cards in not the main deck, but in the healing deck. It's called the, it's the healing edition. And then the other side says, make your mind a good place to be.
Grace Heer (10:08.137)
Hmm.
Grace Heer (10:13.151)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (10:33.77)
I like that. Michelle, since we're on camera, will you just actually show the deck?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:34.845)
Yeah, so one of the things... Yeah. So here's the, it's just this little deck of cards. So the main deck is much larger. It comes in three levels, which I love the levels because the levels on the main one are, level one is perception, level two is connection, and level three is reflection. And...
Grace Heer (10:43.988)
Okay, yeah.
Grace Heer (10:48.958)
Oh, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:04.161)
For those new to this podcast, I use these at my wedding reception. I put cards at every placemat to really build deeper conversation amongst the people. We didn't have seating arrangements. We let everybody pick where they wanted to sit. And I wanted people to get to know each other more so than, wow, isn't this place beautiful? How do you know, Michelle? You know what I mean? And so the result was...
were a little I'm gonna say they said this with the kindness of hearts they said fuck you I hate these cards because a lot of people were in tears people were processing stuff they didn't expect to come to a wedding and process I kind of wish I would have had like a therapist on staff that could have like been support for people that needed it I don't know that they really needed it but it would have been cute just
Grace Heer (11:44.11)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (11:49.902)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:00.341)
based on my work to have somebody like that as a referral. Like it would jive. I didn't have anything to do with my wedding planning. My now husband took care of all of it with a wedding planner. I didn't want to have a big wedding. This was the one thing I contributed because I wanted something to be part of the wedding that was really me. And this is so me. Like it really is. And it costs 20 bucks to destroy a deck by placing them all across the table. So.
Grace Heer (12:01.976)
No!
Grace Heer (12:11.21)
Yeah. Okay.
Grace Heer (12:18.718)
Yeah, that's awesome.
Grace Heer (12:26.537)
Simba!
Grace Heer (12:30.21)
So, well, let me just say, if anyone who was in attendance at the wedding is listening right now, and they need a safe space to process the trauma of being at Michelle's wedding, feel free to hit me up.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:30.377)
That's my history.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:43.389)
Right? Yeah. I think so. So here's a specific, a specific example of this was one person said to me, like, I don't know if she said it at the wedding, but I definitely got a follow-up text that was like, at the wedding, fucking hated these cards. It's very uncomfortable for me. But after we left her and her boyfriend left, they were getting ready to they're planning a vacation in a couple of days after that. They were going to be going on a.
Grace Heer (13:03.938)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:11.561)
road trip or some travel together, and they decided they were going to take these kinds of cards with them and actually dive further into it because it was a great opportunity for them to get to know each other on a deeper level.
Grace Heer (13:25.143)
night.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:26.081)
So it may have been uncomfortable in the moment, but like me, when I put myself out there and I saw the return on investment, they got over the fear and decided to use it. Now, the real fun part is there was a specific question I got called out on. Like I walked up to you, how you go, well, you know how when you hold an event and you have to entertain everybody at the event, you got to make
Grace Heer (13:33.913)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:51.593)
your way around. And so I'm making my way around to tables and I sit down and they go, this card, this card right here. And it was like, the question was, what is one feeling you miss feeling or no, the question was, is there a feeling that you miss feeling? And it opened them up, right? So I'm sitting there and my lovely photographer friend, who you might have seen on my Facebook page, Arash, he sits down next to me, he's photographing our reception and our wedding.
Grace Heer (13:52.567)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:21.737)
And I said, Arash, you're this big feelings man. How would you answer this question? And he goes, yes. And I'm like, yes, what? He goes, it doesn't ask you what the feeling is. It asks you, is there a feeling that you miss feeling? But everybody at this table just opened up not, I mean, they could have really questioned that card and really paid attention to it. But they chose to open up about what that feeling was. And that's super sweet.
Anyways, I could talk about how special that event was, but the specialness of these cards really can't let go of them. So back to the healing deck. They come with these little like instruction things. And I want to say this part because I shared it with Grace before we got on to record. But every time I've read these couple of lines, it hits me so heavy. It says, if you're not speaking your truth, you're storing it. And that gets heavy.
This pack is an invitation to get it all off of your chest. Use it to self-reflect or play with someone who's ready to dig deep with you. Being honest about how you're really feeling is one of the most healing things you can do for yourself and for the people in your life.
And that is exactly what I hold space for. Right?
Grace Heer (15:46.162)
Yeah. Well, I don't know about you, but for me, it's my job and it's my joy. Yeah. Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:54.773)
Yes. And it's been my own work. When we talk about the grieving process, it took me a long time to get, I want to say to a place where I feel much more at ease around my grief. But I think it took extra long because I avoided it for a very long time. And then I got to where I was like, all right, I'm going to let, I had grown a lot. I had done a lot of like, I joined, this is
Grace Heer (16:10.425)
Mm.
Grace Heer (16:16.066)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:24.285)
My mother died in 2002, and I joined Cuddlist in 2015. And I can say at that point, I was deep into the grief because grief just wasn't a thing I could deal with in my previous relationship. I didn't have anybody supporting me through it, right? And so there was a point where a friend and colleague said, are you ready to let go of this grief? And I said, no, I'm not actually, I kind of enjoy it.
Grace Heer (16:42.273)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:51.177)
I had gotten to that point where it was like the way to connect with my mother was to still have the grief, right? And through some other work that I've done, that's gotten a lot less. It feels a lot lighter, but I had to go through it, right? You can't bypass it.
Grace Heer (16:56.629)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (17:01.867)
awesome.
Yes. Yeah. No, the only way out is through. I think it's Winston Churchill who said, if you find yourself walking in hell, keep walking. Yeah. And it's the same with grief. It's the same with any like big emotion or big situation. You know, if you stop, you'll get stuck there and we don't want that. Nobody wants to be stuck in grief.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:17.705)
Yep. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:33.677)
Thank you.
Grace Heer (17:33.686)
keep taking the steps and you'll get through.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:36.381)
Yep. And sometimes I think it makes a difference if you're doing it with a witness. I heard it said once, like, you wouldn't do surgery on yourself. You kind of need a guide or a... Think of like trip sitting for like psychedelic work, right? You almost need somebody just to hold what you're expelling from yourself, right?
Grace Heer (17:42.239)
Absolutely.
Grace Heer (17:46.412)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (18:00.278)
Yes, yes, yes. No, that's absolutely true. It can feel very unsafe to do it on your own and not that it is unsafe, but it can feel like, what if I can't handle the next thing? What if I can't, like I let my emotions out and I can't handle that? And so to have a witness there, it can make such a difference knowing that, okay,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:20.876)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (18:29.982)
And depending, you know, to have the right witness, I think, to know that I, this person will hold me and will, that I am, that everything that happens is safe with me.
Grace Heer (18:48.682)
And we haven't even answered a card yet.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:50.229)
Yeah. Okay. I could, I don't have any of this stuff because I'm like, yeah, my inner child and la la. Like I could just go on and on. Okay, so.
Grace Heer (18:57.426)
And did we mention that we are recording this at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning? Because I was stupid enough to say, oh yeah, it'll be great. Anyway, so yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:01.726)
Oh right, we forgot to talk about that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:07.809)
like early morning. Like, I feel my best. But like, you know, I literally just like, fix my hair a little bit, wash my face and brush my teeth. Just because I don't like to feel my teeth when they're not brushed. Not that you could have any like, it wasn't like we're doing like smell a vision where you would be like, Michelle, you got coffee breath.
Grace Heer (19:18.11)
Yeah, same.
Grace Heer (19:29.386)
Yeah, so anyway, moving on to the next.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:30.097)
Yeah, yes. Okay, we picked a couple cards to talk about and we didn't pick the order. So, did you have a preference of which order we went in?
Grace Heer (19:41.358)
I don't even remember what the questions are. So just jump.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:43.145)
Okay, this is the first one I picked when I picked them, so we'll start there. What piece of advice has helped your mental health the most?
Grace Heer (19:55.782)
I think I just said the answer. Like the only way out is through. And like sort of a companion cliche to that is, this too shall pass.
Grace Heer (20:18.279)
Um, yeah, it sucks to be right here right now, but keep going. You'll get, you'll get through this. Um.
Feel the feeling.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:31.782)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Grace Heer (20:33.778)
I think that's the crux of it. Feel the feelings. And the more the more you're able to actually feel those feelings, the more you can you will get from them, the more you can learn from them, I think, and grow from them.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:55.777)
They have information, big time, especially anger. Oh my gosh.
Grace Heer (20:57.302)
Yes. Yeah, our feelings are signals, right? Like, yes, anger. Like, anger for me is a signal that my values are being stepped on. What, you know. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:10.361)
I have a boundary that needs to be addressed. Right, that's my, it's like, oh, okay, I got really mad. What was that about? Is there something that has to change? Right, yeah. It's hard when it says mental health, which one has helped your mental health the most. It's like, I can't, I can't. It's like picking children, right? I'm like, what I think that,
Grace Heer (21:21.795)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (21:32.398)
I know.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:38.157)
learning to address my inner child has been really, really helpful. And it sounds kind of, I don't know, woo wee or, or I have some clients that are very like, I always say, have you done any inner child work? And they go, no, like they just dismiss it. And I'm like, no, really, like there's a part of you that's showing up whether you want it to show up or not, because it like children, they're gonna stomp their feet in.
and whatnot. And for myself, the first time I started to actually address my inner child and say, I'm sorry that you don't feel safe. I haven't done a great job of protecting you in the past, but know that I've got this. I'm okay. We're going to be okay. Right? Started to shift so much for me around like co-dependence and just going from being a person that was
Grace Heer (22:18.966)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (22:25.846)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:34.401)
preparing to be rescued, like I didn't ever have a plan to save myself in life, but that I was always waiting for to be rescued out of my situation.
Grace Heer (22:43.658)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:44.973)
to like just building this toolbox that I thank Cuddlist all the time for it. I have a whole episode where I talk about how much my life changed just getting involved in that work, kind of accidentally getting involved in that work. I'm a different person and so much of it is, I have a much better relationship with my inner child.
Grace Heer (23:05.106)
Yeah. And for me, like when you learn about NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, we talk about parts a lot. We all have parts, but you know, like, oh, part of me wants to go for a run, but part of me just wants to sit on the couch and watch a movie. So like that's, that literally there are those parts in our, in our psyche and our unconscious. And so like,
addressing them, making friends with those parts is so like, and like, we are not our parts. Like, I don't have to give in to either one of those. I, like, I, me, like the conscious grace, can say, hmm, I see you and like, I see you or, you know,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:47.67)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (24:01.454)
One of the things that I'm doing right now is talking to a particular part. I see you hurting and I know you need to go ahead. I'll wait. Now, what can we do about it?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:15.965)
Or I see that I see a part of me that's trying to protect me, right? And I'm getting really closed off and wanting to go hide, right? Is that really what you want? Do you really want connection, but it's never been safe? Right? I know I was one of those kids that my parents sent me to my room. It was pretty common. You know, it was common parenting technique, right? We were not in the space of like conscious parenting and
Grace Heer (24:19.758)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (24:30.923)
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:42.985)
really working on attachment and things. And so my go-to is like, I just want to go hide under the covers in my bed by myself. And years ago, my partner and I made an agreement that we wouldn't do that. Like I wouldn't do that. That I would let him, even if I don't want to talk to him, just let him be with me so I'm not alone. And it's freaking so hard when I'm really upset to let him do that, right? Like it's hard, but again, it's all the parts.
Grace Heer (24:49.304)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Grace Heer (25:01.154)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (25:12.97)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:13.193)
our whole system.
Grace Heer (25:17.582)
So does that answer your question?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:21.513)
Yeah, the advice is to go through it. Don't avoid it. You got to go through the feelings. I think you mentioned another one. Do you remember what it was? Or maybe it was an extension of that.
Grace Heer (25:22.402)
Okay.
Yeah.
Grace Heer (25:32.242)
Um, like, yeah, I think it was just an extension of that and be with your parts, be with yourself and find a safe container, whether that's your own container, like whether that's like when I'm sitting in this chair, this, that means I'm going through this or, or whether it's a safe space with another human, a therapist or whatever.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:52.567)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:55.765)
Yeah, somebody who can hold space. There's a training to this, right? Like, I think that's, I remember many years ago, everything's like pre-COVID, post-COVID in my head, sometime pre-COVID. I remember I took a deep listening class with Kassandra Brown, who's one of our colleagues at Cuddlist, and I thought I was a really good listener. I was not a good listener.
Grace Heer (26:02.268)
Great.
Grace Heer (26:12.842)
I get it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:25.541)
And I was doing cuddling work at the time and I was making the worst thing I think you can do in a session is try to tell give people advice. But I was totally doing it. And I look back now and I'm like, no wonder my repeat rate was so low because now that I know what it feels like now that like I've looked at it through like a magnifying glass and really inspected it.
Grace Heer (26:49.887)
Yeah. I think it is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:52.565)
I don't like it when people give me unsolicited advice. It makes my skin crawl. And so I can look back now and go, oh, man, did I blow it for a while there? Like, ugh. Yeah, so we got sidetracked. It's my life. Yeah. I know. Totally.
Grace Heer (26:59.063)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (27:06.466)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (27:13.726)
Eh, squirrel.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:18.109)
I don't have a diagnosis of ADHD or anything like that, but the more examples I see of what it looks like, especially in people born into the female body, and the idea that we have a million tabs open in our brain as one of those signifying things, that is me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:39.185)
My my Chrome literally has a million tabs open in it right now in front of me on my computer But my brain is also the same way, okay second question
What do you need right now more than anything?
Grace Heer (27:55.466)
Hmm
Grace Heer (27:59.246)
So I'm trying to decide if I'm, if the right now, because earlier when you asked me that, I said a nap and a cuddle.
Grace Heer (28:18.434)
I'm trying to... those things still sound really good.
Grace Heer (28:34.422)
I need to continue.
Grace Heer (28:41.298)
acting like I love myself.
Grace Heer (28:46.124)
I know that I love myself and like way better than I used to.
But I think I need to continue acting like it and acting toward me as I would toward another human being that I love deeply.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:06.815)
Mm, self-compassion.
Grace Heer (29:09.128)
Yeah.
Like even deeper than that maybe. I don't know what's deeper than self-compassion. Like there's.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:16.937)
Well, it sounds like you're saying like the actions, like action verbs, right? Like, the things you do to love yourself to show yourself that you love yourself. Yeah.
Grace Heer (29:19.423)
Yes.
Yeah.
Grace Heer (29:26.354)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (29:31.392)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:34.961)
I always like, let me tell you a story. My answer to that, and then it'll probably all tie together. I ask myself this question quite regularly. What do you need right now? It was an exercise. I think again, Kassandra Brown, I think brought it into, there was once upon a time, there was something called the advanced Cuddlist training. I think it only ran a couple of times, but it was a deeper dive. And Kassandra was
Grace Heer (29:37.706)
I love this story.
Grace Heer (29:45.026)
fear.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:03.821)
co-facilitating it with Madelon Guinazzo And I remember she presented this exercise and I don't know if it was her exercise or if that just was their trade-off, right? When they were co-facilitating. But I have her in my head saying, what do you want right now? And one of the exercises was I had to go through like a day in every 30 minutes, ask myself, what do I want right now? And do the thing. And...
And I had a major breakthrough moment with this question around that time, I went and did MDMA for the first time. So, shh, Michelle likes drugs sometimes. And I was at a party and I took MDMA and I proceeded to ask myself for the night, what do you need right now? What do you want right now? And I took care of myself so well.
And that was my big integration from that experience was, I can take care of myself. I felt so grounded in myself. My self-worth changed that day. It was amazing. And I wish I could make sure it would happen for everyone that did it, and I could just prescribe it, but I can't. So I do this often. So right now, I think what I need is, I need breakfast, cause I haven't eaten yet today. And I think I need time at the beach.
Grace Heer (31:05.629)
Awesome.
Grace Heer (31:22.654)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (31:26.09)
Oh, nice.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:27.101)
I think I might take like my second cup of coffee and drive to La Jolla and just walk my favorite section of beach. I don't have anything else to do today, Grace. Like this was the only thing on my calendar that has to be done. And like you, I think I need to give myself a little bit of me time.
Grace Heer (31:37.814)
Nice.
Grace Heer (31:41.698)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (31:46.142)
Nice, nice. So like I'm now, I'm shifting the focus of that, like from a broader, what do I need, to like what do I, what do I need in this meat suit right now? I need to adjust because, yeah, and yeah, I'm gonna put my foot up.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:49.31)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:06.657)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (32:14.342)
I injured my foot like three weeks ago and I dropped a big heavy thing on my toe and it's still cranky. It wasn't broken but it's still cranky so I'm putting my foot up.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:26.445)
Yeah, this came up in an interview. I think it was like August 2022. Brian Gibney and I went on a podcast called Guys We Fucked.
Grace Heer (32:36.684)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:42.005)
It's a couple of comedians. I used to listen to it back in the day, like when I was first single, I listened to a variety of podcasts, but usually they're sex and relationship focused and they're funny, but like it was always entertaining, entertaining podcasts, listen to it. And we got invited to be on the podcast. So it was like one of these woohoo moments. I was like starstruck in a way. And they asked Brian the question like,
Grace Heer (33:00.974)
This is fun.
Hehehe
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:10.817)
How do people figure out what they want in life?
And he goes, he had the most brilliant answer and I've held onto it. He said, well, you gotta start small. You gotta figure out what you want right now. What do you need right now? If you're not willing to meet your own needs in the smallest of ways, you can't answer the bigger question. So if you scan your body right now and you're like, I kinda need to pee.
Grace Heer (33:37.975)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:39.361)
Take yourself to the bathroom, but how many of us ignore that and push it away for a little while longer? We're not doing a great job of, yeah, taking care of our own needs.
Grace Heer (33:44.682)
Yeah, like, oh wait, I can, let me.
Yeah, yeah, true.
Awesome.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:55.337)
Yeah, that one sticks with me. I like that. That one is like, this is why we do these little things of what do you need right now? So I pass that exercise on to clients when it comes up as appropriate of like, try this little thing, this little thing that might change your life in a lot of ways, because I ask myself that question. It's like a it's a habit for me now that multiple times a day I'll say, what do you need right now? I don't want to get in the car.
Grace Heer (34:05.248)
Awesome.
Grace Heer (34:09.226)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (34:18.478)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (34:23.646)
Oh!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:25.225)
So if I'm gonna drive, there's a couple things I might do. I could sit in silence. I could play music.
Grace Heer (34:27.914)
Okay. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:35.037)
I could listen to an audio book. I could listen to a podcast. Those are my general options, right? And then it's like, okay, which one do I want to do? Okay. Now in that subcategory, what do I want? What kind of music do I want to listen to? What genre, right? You know what I mean? Like I make these little like, kind of like pulling it apart into the littlest pieces.
Grace Heer (34:42.952)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (34:56.183)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (35:03.306)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:03.521)
to make decisions. And I practice that cuddle party rule of you're encouraged to change your mind. So if I turn on a certain kind of music and I go, nope, this isn't what I wanted. My antenna, right? I'm like, I got one of those water sticks, right? That I'm just letting it guide me. Does this feel like it? And sometimes it'll just, it settles when I get the right answer, right? And so I just keep looking until I get that, no, this is what I wanted.
Grace Heer (35:23.365)
I love it. Yeah.
Grace Heer (35:30.137)
Thank you.
Yeah. And so I love that you are, because not everybody is even self-aware enough to know that they have the design, divining stick, and that they can choose, and that they're even like, not just their brain, but their body will tell them, yes, this is what you want.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:34.134)
This is the thing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:44.254)
No!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:54.301)
And this can be honed, right? I think this is a lot of what we do in cuddling is people come in and we go, how do you wanna connect? They go, I don't know. And then we start to help them figure that answer out. And I came out of that previous, my first marriage, there's a lot of gaslighting in that relationship. I was told I had a bad memory.
Grace Heer (35:56.322)
Yeah.
Yeah!
Grace Heer (36:04.918)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (36:16.494)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:20.509)
I was told these things about myself and then I came out of it and I was like, wait, that's not true. Right? And I had to rebuild that gut, my gut instinct, that gut feeling. And so you can do it too. It's like having a space to practice making decisions, little decisions. How do I want to connect with you today? And it's not about pre-planning and having a...
Grace Heer (36:25.249)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (36:29.874)
Awesome.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:48.289)
choreographed idea coming in because that's not just like you decided to check in and say what do I actually want right now not what I wanted 20 minutes ago right I don't want people to come in with like oh I know I'm gonna want this isn't this it's nice to have some ideas of what might be options because you don't know what you don't know right maybe you've never looked at cuddling what does cuddling look like can you find some examples how does that sound to me but in the moment I want to know what you want
Grace Heer (36:56.34)
Right, right.
Grace Heer (37:07.886)
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:19.149)
Yeah. I love our work. There's nothing it doesn't touch on. Okay. Do you want to do one more card? We're coming, we've recorded about 37 minutes. We could squeeze one more in. I'm just going to randomly draw one. I don't like the red cards. Okay. Here's a white card. A lot of times they're wild cards or they're just reminder. In this deck, it's like a reminder, like example. This reminder says, if you're trying not to think about it,
Grace Heer (37:22.59)
Hahahaha
Grace Heer (37:31.142)
Okay, let's do one more. Why not?
Grace Heer (37:36.174)
Okay.
Oh, that's the red card.
Grace Heer (37:46.359)
Oh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:48.821)
it's probably time to heal it. That's a good one, right? I just do probably social media posts on these all day long if I wanted to. Okay, the random card says, how have you neglected your mental health recently? What's one small way you can make it up to yourself? Not a big card.
Grace Heer (37:51.733)
Ooh.
Yep.
Grace Heer (38:02.338)
Okay.
Grace Heer (38:16.986)
You just killed me. My brain just short circuited.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:18.125)
I'm sorry.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:22.237)
You can also take care of yourself and say, Michelle, I just don't want to do this card. We can stop now.
Grace Heer (38:27.946)
Um, so I, here's like the first thing that came to my mind was, um, rest. I have not been resting enough. Um, and I mean sleep, but I also mean just like restful time to be.
Um, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:51.649)
Do you have a way of knowing when that's happening? Like have you figured out what your signals are? Like, like.
Grace Heer (39:01.985)
It's mmm
Grace Heer (39:07.846)
I'm I so unlike you I do have a formal diagnosis of ADHD which I just got like a year ago and I'm in the midst of trying a new medication so I don't quite trust that the ways that I had are still the ways if that makes sense.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:33.261)
Sure. Total sense
Grace Heer (39:36.382)
So I think that's part of what I'm exploring too, as I'm paying attention to the medication, or maybe I should say what I need to be exploring, or it would be who've me, what is like, how do I know when I'm not, but like right now I can know by the external signs of like looking at my calendar.
for this week. There's just no space. There's no white space. And so, although today, thankfully, I have white space from when we're done until 2.30. And I'm going to enjoy that white space and have some rest time, but...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:07.497)
Yeah, I know and I'm part of your busyness. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:22.945)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (40:34.754)
But at the same time, I have things to do like laundry. But that can, I don't know, for me, sometimes household chore kinds of things are also part of the white space. Time to putter in my space.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:50.945)
Time to get your life back to baseline.
Grace Heer (40:57.633)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:01.585)
I would say that my answer was going to be exactly the same, which is funny. For me, I asked if you have a note, like you know when it's happening. For me, the sign, the tell is, so I'm a morning person. I don't use an alarm. I wake up at an ungodly hour of usually around 5 a.m. and I've been working on trying to reset my sleep pattern, but it hasn't been working.
Grace Heer (41:05.134)
Hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:31.477)
But I get out of bed because I'm ready to get out of bed. I don't force myself out of bed. If I'm feeling tired, I stay in bed. Sometimes I wake up at four o'clock in the morning, 3.30 in the morning, and I'm like, you're still tired, Michelle. You're not getting out of bed. I'm not gonna let that happen. So I get up when I'm ready. And what my tell is, is when I've been up for a little bit and I find myself feeling tired, I need some nothing-ness time. Like, again, just...
Grace Heer (41:38.478)
Mmm.
Grace Heer (41:41.803)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:00.197)
I need to have some, like I call it conscious dissociation where I like, I do, I say this is an Adam Paulman I don't, did you ever know Adam Paulman? He's here in San Diego.
Grace Heer (42:13.098)
Um, yeah, I know, yes, I'm familiar with him. I don't know that he would know me from, oh, know me from Adam.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:16.298)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:19.725)
Yeah. For the people at home, Adam Paulman runs cuddle parties here in San Diego. He used to be a Cuddlist I used to interact with him a lot more than I do currently. I think last time I saw him was I went to dinner with him like back in January. So he's in my peripheral, but he's not somebody I see all the time. He used to say this thing, and I repeat it so often. He says, I need to get bored so that I like...
so that I can like get excited about a project.
Yeah, and I can get bored in little micro doses, but sometimes I have to get real bored. And like Thanksgiving weekend was a good real board for me because we went on a road trip and I just refused to do any work. And when I say work, I mean, I didn't even play an audio book, which for me, audio books is a lot of, like I don't read fiction. It's like all self-help, relationship, therapy, you know, that realm.
Grace Heer (42:55.164)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (42:59.967)
Yeah.
Grace Heer (43:13.006)
Wow.
Grace Heer (43:23.492)
Mm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:25.221)
And that is work. Like, even though it's for me personally, because I do gain myself, like ultimately my hobby, I'm working on myself has turned into a job. I just, I started to turn on the book that I'm currently reading and I went, actually, no. Again, what do I want right now? This isn't it. I need to get away, away from work.
Grace Heer (43:41.708)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:46.833)
working on myself or work as in working with other people. So, um, that's what I haven't had a lot of time for because like you, Cuddlist has kind of been taking up a lot of time, right? I know you are working on training and you're, you and your team is working on how to get a lot of these things kind of easier and more automated and whatnot. I'm working with this.
Grace Heer (44:11.775)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:14.961)
deadline for old training certifications and getting everybody through before we lose our platform where our initial training was. Like there's this big transition that's happening with Cuddlist and you're certainly, I'm sure you're feeling that as part of this lack of white space. I'm feeling it too because it's more than I'm normally doing and, but I know there's an end site, right? There's an end in sight. So I'm pushing myself a little past that.
place of wow, Michelle, I'm noticing that you're tired when you're not usually tired. That means you need to take a break. Because I know that Sunday is the last day. Sunday is the last day. So tomorrow is the last day for me to do certifications under the old system. And so I'm like, it's okay. I know where the end is. And then I have a week of
Grace Heer (44:46.723)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (44:54.978)
Like tomorrow?
Grace Heer (44:59.808)
Okay.
Grace Heer (45:04.726)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:08.941)
cramming for my kids coming into town for a holiday break and then travel to Michigan. I still have a lot of things going, but I know where the end is and like today where I have that white space, I'm going to do as much to like capture that the thing that I love going to the beach, right? I'm going to do the thing I love the most. Sometimes when I need a quick pick me up, Golden Girls.
Grace Heer (45:32.898)
Mm.
Grace Heer (45:36.37)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:37.517)
I laughing makes my system reset. And I know that's my thing, right? It's like, I tell clients a lot, we're here to build your owner's manual. Right? What do you need? How does your system work? Right? For yourself and for other people that you're in relationship with. I think we're really fortunate that working together and Cuddlist, there's a culture of please take care of yourself.
Grace Heer (45:39.214)
Mm-hmm. Oh. It sure does. Yeah.
Grace Heer (45:54.62)
Mm-hmm.
Grace Heer (45:59.935)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:08.637)
I sent Keely Shoup our CEO at Marco Polo the other day where I was really frustrated with Podia. I think you saw my email that probably went out around that same time. And I just, when I get really frustrated, I cry. And I found myself about to just break down in tears on Marco Polo with her. And I went, I need to take a break. I'm gonna take a break right now. And I stopped the recording and I walked away from my computer.
And she sent me the most lovely message later that was like, first of all, thank you, thank you, thank you for taking a break, right? I didn't smash any computers. I didn't. And I took the opportunity to like really journal about where that comes from. This feeling of overwhelm when I don't know the answer to something. And it's definitely tied into my childhood and how...
Grace Heer (47:02.99)
Oh, God.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:07.517)
kind of the culture of my family and my father and his temper and safety and all these things that came up for me. So like, am I ever not working on myself?
Grace Heer (47:22.03)
Well, I think that makes us kind of healthy. But like I recognize that sense of overwhelm when I don't have the answer. But for me, it was third child looking up to parents and older siblings and always wanting to be.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:27.017)
Yeah, no, for sure.
Grace Heer (47:44.586)
like you know with them and they have the answers so that means I have to have the answers too. So for me it's more of a self-expectation but yeah that's it's good to know that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:58.569)
Yeah, I was the oldest and my father had a really, he wasn't physically abusive. It was definitely emotional abuse and he had quite the temper. And so my job is the oldest was to keep everybody good. Right. So that kept the, the level of, of engagement in our household. Like lessened. Right. So that was my responsibility was to make sure my sisters were in line.
Grace Heer (48:09.737)
Hmm.
Grace Heer (48:28.034)
Oh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:28.173)
And also whenever he couldn't find something, it was always our fault, right? And he would scream and yell at us, why can't I find this thing? And then of course he would find it, it would be clear that it was his problem, right? It was something he did, but there was never an apology. There was never any like, as a kid, you don't understand that was his emotional immaturity. Right? So it's nice to kind of revisit those things as an adult and reprocess them from our
Grace Heer (48:31.584)
Okay.
Grace Heer (48:48.994)
Alright.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:56.145)
adult, or wise adult mind rather than our adaptive child as Terry Real says in his Relational Life Therapy. I don't know if anybody wants a book to read, but his book, Us, is a really great read. I'll throw that in here. Yeah, so...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:15.433)
Yeah, I need to go take my inner child to the beach.
Grace Heer (49:19.741)
Awesome
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:23.056)
Yeah, maybe, well I don't know if I'll take my dog. I think that feels like more work than enjoyment. So I think I'll leave him home, but you know.
Grace Heer (49:27.571)
Hmm. I think a bucket and a shovel. You make a good answer. Coffee's good too. Ha!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:31.381)
No, I'm taking coffee. That'll be what I'll be carrying. I'm just going to carry my little, you know, insulated cup and yeah, and maybe go watch some dolphins or something. So, Grace, thanks for joining me today.
Grace Heer (49:38.194)
Cool travel mug.
Grace Heer (49:43.754)
Nice, good.
Super fun, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:49.877)
Yeah, I think this went well. I don't know how people at home feel. So like, I think there's probably people out there that are a great fit for whatever I'm offering. And then there's other people that are gonna be like Michelle, like just shut up, stop talking. And that's okay, there's other podcasts for you. Yeah, they're not my audience. Yeah, where can people find you?
Grace Heer (50:06.648)
And yeah, because they're not your audience, right? That's cool.
Grace Heer (50:14.206)
Oh, so you can find me on, I'm more active on Facebook than Instagram. It's Grace Heer Coaching and Cuddling. And my website is gracefulcuddles.com. And you can also follow me on Eventbrite if you wanted to attend my group, my Graceful Cuddle workshops in Orange County.
California. Okay, cool.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:44.969)
I'll put it on the show notes. Yeah, well, it was lovely to break this seal with you. I don't know, like all the virginities Yeah.
Grace Heer (50:56.91)
Yeah, yeah, it was a good time. It's always lovely to connect with you and hopefully people get something out of it. And if not, like, if you didn't get something out of this episode, you know, you might get something out of another episode, because I won't be on it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:03.689)
Yeah, it's.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:12.765)
You know what matters? I got something out of the episode. And that's why I do this podcast is because I like it. So it was a pleasure, Grace. I look forward to it to the next time we get to hang out together.
Grace Heer (51:17.326)
There you go. Awesome.
Yeah.
Grace Heer (51:28.99)
Likewise.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:30.921)
All right, we'll see y'all, I guess, on the next episode.
