Aubri Lancaster and Michelle's Personal Asexuality Journey
In this episode, Michelle Renee is joined by Aubri Lancaster, an asexuality and aromanticism educator. They discuss the concepts of asexuality and aromanticism, providing a comprehensive understanding of these orientations. Michelle shares her personal journey and how she discovered her own asexuality. They also explore the connection between aphantasia and asexuality. The conversation highlights the importance of differentiating between sexual attraction and desire. In this conversation, Aubri Lancaster and Michelle Renee discuss personal desire and attraction, exploring intimacy beyond sex, different pathways to asexuality, navigating sexual attraction and desire, expanding the definition of intimacy, challenges in sex education and advocacy, the importance of language and understanding, and decentering sex in relationships. The conversation explores the topic of solo sex within committed relationships and the importance of communication and negotiation in maintaining a healthy sexual dynamic. It challenges the societal expectation that sex should only occur within a partnership and highlights the need for individuals to prioritize their own sexual satisfaction. The conversation emphasizes the significance of open dialogue and mutual understanding in navigating differences in sexual preferences. Overall, it encourages a shift towards more inclusive and personalized relationship agreements.
Aubri Lancaster is an AASECT certified sexuality educator with a focus on asexuality and aromantisism. She can be found at AceSexEducation.com or @acesexeducation on social media.
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Intimacy Guide and Surrogate Partner. Michelle's website is https://meetmichellerenee.com and can be found on social media at @meetmichellerenee.
Takeaways
Understanding personal desire and attraction is a complex and individual experience.
Intimacy can be experienced in various forms, including platonic, intellectual, and touch-based connections.
Asexuality encompasses different pathways and experiences, and it is important to recognize and respect these diverse perspectives.
Sexual attraction and desire can be separate from emotional and romantic connections.
There are many ways to connect and experience pleasure beyond sexual activity.
Sex education and advocacy face challenges in terms of societal norms and limited support.
Language and understanding play a crucial role in exploring and accepting diverse sexual orientations and experiences.
Relationships can prioritize different forms of connection and intimacy, and sex does not have to be the central focus. It is acceptable to prioritize solo sex even in committed partnerships.
Lack of communication and understanding can lead to issues in sexual dynamics.
Negotiating relationship agreements is crucial for establishing mutual satisfaction and avoiding societal expectations.
Open dialogue and self-awareness are essential in navigating differences in sexual preferences.
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an upcoming episode, click here.
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Links from today's episode:
Aubri's Episode of The Bonding Hour
Michelle's Episode of The Bonding Hour
Rough Transcript
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:01.677)
Welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. Today I'm excited to be joined by my colleague Aubri Lancaster, who is an asexuality and aromanticism coach or would it be coach or educator? Educator, okay. I'll have you do an actual introduction here, but Aubri, I always like to say like, where did I meet this person that is sitting across from me because...
Aubri Lancaster (00:02.498)
back to the intimacy lab. Today I'm excited to be joined by my colleague, Aubri Lancaster, who is an asexuality and romanticism coach, maybe coach or educator. Educator.
Aubri Lancaster (00:17.674)
have you do an actual introduction here but I always like to say like where did I meet this person? This didn't question me because the way I see this podcast is about like kind of my usual cast of characters. Like who do I surround myself with? And you are definitely like my go-to in this realm because I've got to you myself. And also you show up to the same spaces that I've been so...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:26.665)
The way I see this podcast is about like kind of my usual cast of characters. Like who do I surround myself with? And you are definitely like my go-to in this realm because I've gone to you myself, but you also just, you show up to the same spaces that I'm in. And so we get to know each other a little bit. So it's great to be able to be like, this is part of my life. I want to talk about it on my podcast. Um.
Aubri Lancaster (00:48.666)
We could get to know each other a little bit. It's great to be able to be like, this is part of my life. I want to talk about it on my podcast. So thanks for joining me. Do you want to give people a little introduction of who you are? Sure. So yeah, I'm an ASEC-certified sexuality educator with a focus in asexuality and aromanticism. I've been working in general sexuality education through adult product sales.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:54.765)
So thanks for joining me. Do you want to give you a like a little introduction of who you are?
Aubri Lancaster (01:14.414)
for 16 years before I turned my career to focus more on educating sexuality professionals on asexuality and aromanticism, which I've been doing for the last few years now.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:27.145)
we have the toy thing in common. I almost forgot about that until you brought that up because that's kind of where I kind of stuck my toes into this world first. Like I even forget it in my story when I'm telling people like, how did you get into this work? I almost always forget that I did do toy sales for a while. And I didn't even do like the jump on board with an established company. I was like, I'm a go getter. And I went out and like,
Aubri Lancaster (01:30.303)
Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (01:36.99)
I even forget it in my story when I'm...
Aubri Lancaster (01:42.302)
I almost always forget that I did.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:57.029)
opened up wholesale accounts and like crafted my own like really curated what I wanted to sell and yeah probably another one of those things where I had the idea in the shower and had the website up by the afternoon kind of weird things but no it took it took more work than that was a big one but it was part of my history that I kind of forget about because that's probably um one of those ways where my ease of talking about sex
Aubri Lancaster (01:58.914)
Oh wow. Nice.
Aubri Lancaster (02:13.654)
Oh. Six more words.
my history. I kind of forget about it because that's probably one of those ways where it might ease up.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:26.949)
showed up in my life as like, you could do this. And then it's kind of keeps evolving.
Aubri Lancaster (02:29.59)
Hmm. I was not at ease at all when I first started. No, the person who helped me get started, my sponsor, when I said, you know, like, I don't really know anything about these products, how do I educate people about this? And she's like, well, you know, the products sell themselves. It's kind of like just talking about a teacup. It's not a teacup. But what ended up happening is
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:36.176)
No.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:53.845)
No.
Aubri Lancaster (02:57.81)
After doing it for just a few months and learning about the products and learning about everything they did, I realized that very quickly I did no more than most of the people at my parties, just because there is so little information out there for adults and certainly not 20 years ago. So yeah, I learned a lot very quickly and started being able to share that with people and realized just how much.
we needed this kind of education and in those private spaces that I was doing in-home parties. And so it just really expanded from there. And I definitely spent the time to learn about it, but I started in the industry and then learned about it. Yes. What better way to learn than to teach.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:39.465)
On the job training, right? Yeah, I mean, it's the same thing with like professional cuddling, you can go through a training, but that doesn't you really don't learn what you really need to learn until you get on the job, right? You can learn all the theory of like, what are my boundaries? And how do we establish those? And here's some, some structure to the work, but you really learn how you're going to show up in that space when you're doing it. Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (03:52.891)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (04:00.338)
to the work, but you really learn how you're going to show up in that space. Yeah, yeah. It was... The toy parties, I think one of my first things I went to was with my mother-in-law. Not my current mother-in-law, her mother-in-law. And I remember taking my mother to a party, and how envious she was, and uncomfortable, and I really relished
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:08.917)
Toys, I was gonna say toy, the toy parties, like I think one of my first ones I went to was with my mother-in-law back at the time, not my current mother-in-law, previous mother-in-law. And I remember taking my mother to a party and how embarrassed she was and uncomfortable. And I really relished in that and had a good time. I don't know, I remember buying her a toy. I bought her a vibrator for Christmas that year. I might've bought it at that party.
Aubri Lancaster (04:30.614)
her a toy and bought her a vibrator for Christmas that year. I might have bought it at that party and when she after she passed like 20 years ago and we were going through her stuff she still had it in the original wrapper like it never had been taken out. Oh my goodness. But I mean.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:37.301)
and when she after she passed like 20 years ago and we were going through her stuff she still had it in the original wrapper like it never had been taken out she didn't touch it yeah but i mean nowadays michelle and how i practice consent i don't know if i would have like kind of i don't know if i forced her into coming with me or just coerced her a little bit i'm not sure but either way it was a bonding moment for
Aubri Lancaster (04:51.542)
days Michelle and how I practice consent I don't know if I would have like kind of I don't know if I forced her into coming with me or just coerced her a little bit I'm not sure but either way it was a bonding
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:05.281)
for mother-daughter, I'm sure.
Aubri Lancaster (05:07.922)
I gave out so many vibrators this presence over the years. Probably not as appropriate as I thought it was at the time, but... Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:17.541)
Where's that line, right? It's like we want we want people to get more comfortable. And as someone I mean, when you're getting the stuff at discounts, it's also nice to spread the love around a little bit too. So yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (05:23.238)
and as someone, I mean, you're getting.
Aubri Lancaster (05:30.446)
Totally. And I have like a weird sense of not getting embarrassed about things sometimes. So it wasn't embarrassing for me. So I'm like, it can't be as embarrassing for them. Even if sometimes it was.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:44.413)
I know I'm all, I've always thought masturbation sleeves specifically, wouldn't they be great to hand out to every like 13 year old for their birthday? And then I'm also like, is that appropriate, Michelle? I just don't know. I have no sense of what is like standard operating procedure. And do I want to be in standard operating procedure as far as like what is socially acceptable? And oh, there's a whole nother conversation about like how, how to raise the sex.
Aubri Lancaster (06:00.686)
standard.
standard operating procedure as far as like what is socially.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:13.021)
positive family.
Aubri Lancaster (06:14.786)
Yeah, I have a six year old. It's a challenge. But I work primarily with adults. I've never worked with children. So those are conversations I'm really having to learn as I go.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:29.481)
I hear, I think I was reading a book recently and they actually brought up a book from Dr. Lex Brown from the incoming president for ASEC and I was like, oh, I didn't know that she had a book for kids. So, well, now you know. Yeah. I'm reading a lot about perimenopause right now because that's my next stage of life. And it was in a book called something like, What the Fresh Hell is This?
Aubri Lancaster (06:38.58)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (06:44.026)
I didn't either. That's good to know. I'll have to look it up.
Aubri Lancaster (06:52.054)
Mm-hmm. That's my next stage of life. Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (06:58.158)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:59.297)
I think that's what it's called. Anyways, I digress. Okay, so before we dive into asexuality and aromanticism, I have to initiate you with the we're not really strangers card of the day. On my last episode, I learned that doing three cards takes too much time and we were an hour into the episode before we even finished the third card. We had lots to talk about. I don't think ours will take that long. Okay.
Aubri Lancaster (07:04.61)
So, before we dive into asexuality,
to initiate you with a not really strange card. Okay. On my last episode, I learned that doing three cards takes too much time. And we were an hour into the episode before we even finished. Oh, wow. Okay. We had lots to talk about. I don't think I've heard of it. So we picked three cards before we started recording.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:28.261)
So we picked three cards before we started recording. We picked the one that we wanted to do. So we had some consent in this. It's not being sprung on either one of us. So we'll take turns answering. Do I seem like a cat or a dog person? And I'm gonna answer for you and you're gonna answer for me, but I know you have insider information. I think you do. Maybe not. If you're confused by that, then you don't.
Aubri Lancaster (07:37.386)
Yes. So, we'll take turns answering. Do I seem like a cat or a dog person? And I'm going to answer for you, and you're going to answer for me, but I know you have insider information. I do? I think you do. Oh no. Maybe not. If you're confused by that, then you don't. Then I don't. So do you think I'm a cat or a dog? I don't.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:58.205)
No. So do you think I'm a cat or a dog person?
Aubri Lancaster (08:03.67)
I was going to guess a cat person because you're very much into that sensual kind of feelings and but you also strike me as very independent like you could be left alone for a while and be totally fine with that and you decide when you want to be affectionate with others.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:31.697)
I love that answer. I also think cats are so good with their nose. Like, but it's so funny. I thought you already knew this answer because I have my dog with me a lot on calls and he shows up in videos a lot. So I think I'm more of a dog person as far as for pets.
Aubri Lancaster (08:32.399)
I love that!
Aubri Lancaster (08:39.238)
Mmm.
Aubri Lancaster (08:46.038)
Ah, yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (08:50.442)
I think I'm more.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:55.253)
I do think I act more like a cat in a lot of ways, but I also have a lot of dog characteristics. I love a good like pat on the head and a good girl. Like that is a good thing for me. So maybe I'm a fox. Maybe I'm the middle ground somewhere, but that wasn't one of the options. Yeah, we have cats also. They're fine. Like they're not mine. They're Paul's.
Aubri Lancaster (08:55.492)
I do think I act like a kid. But I also have a lot of dog characteristics. I love a good cat on the head and a good girl. Like that is a...
That's a good thing for me. So maybe I'm a fox. Maybe I'm an animal. But that wasn't one of the options. Yeah, we have cats also. They're fine. Like they're not mine. They're Paul's. They like me because I feed them. But we don't... I also am more allergic to cats than I am dogs. I'm allergic to both. But I do think as a cat, I'm definitely more allergic to both.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:25.041)
They like me because I feed them. But we don't. I also am more allergic to cats than I am dogs. I'm allergic to both. But the cats definitely bother me more. But I do think, like, if I was going to go join the furry world or something, maybe I would be. My first sona might be a little more on the cat side. That would be a good guess. Aubri? Hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (09:39.25)
I wouldn't go for a furry world or something. Maybe I would be. My persona might be a little more on the cat side. That would be a good answer. Aubri, hmm. I wasn't thinking about this question because of my personality. I was just thinking guessing what's your touch of preference.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:54.769)
I wasn't thinking about this question from a place of personality. I was just thinking, like, guessing, what's your pet of preference? But because I was going to say dog, and I still feel like I'm drawn to the dog answer, and I can't really say why. I can just see you, like, at a dog park or something. Like, that's, I don't know why.
Aubri Lancaster (10:06.133)
and I still feel like...
I can just see you like at a dog park. That's, you know, gonna last. I actually volunteered at a dog rescue for a couple of years, a while back, yeah. And I have two small chihuahuas. I actually am also allergic to cats. So I grew up with cats. But when I finally discovered that I was allergic...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:31.706)
Mm. Same.
Aubri Lancaster (10:36.886)
that was no longer a future pet option. So I switched to dogs. So Chihuahuas are kind of a good mix of the two though, because they're small and compact like a cat. They get up on like the back of the couch and stuff like a cat. They're very big personalities, but they're also very loud. There's that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:50.526)
Yup.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:55.573)
They are. And I've had a Chihuahua before and my dog now, I think is probably part Chihuahua. We know for sure part Pekingese. Definitely has the Chihuahua kind of vibe to him. A little like a little high strung. We'll just say that. He barks a lot and he also does sit on the back of the couch like a cat. So yeah, definitely a trait that they share. So well, that was fun.
Aubri Lancaster (11:03.866)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (11:11.742)
I struggle.
Aubri Lancaster (11:17.05)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:23.245)
I didn't think about the way you thought about it, which is kind of how communication goes sometimes. Yeah, so we should probably like give a little entry level quickie. What is asexuality? And we can we can touch on I think it'd be important to talk about a romanticism also a little bit just in case somebody comes across this interview and they have a jumping off point. But I think
Aubri Lancaster (11:23.342)
I didn't think about the way you thought about it. It's kind of how communication goes sometimes. Absolutely. So we should probably give a little.
entry level, quickie, what is asexuality? And we can touch on, I think it'd be important to talk about aromanticism also a little bit just in case somebody comes across this interview and they have a jumping off point, but I think what I want to make sure when we're describing these things is like, I think people hear asexuality and they get an idea of what they think they know.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:53.073)
What I want to make sure when we're describing these things is I think people hear asexuality and they get an idea, they think they know what it means. So I want to know if you could kind of give the... It doesn't have to be a 30 second version, but as long as you need to feel like you give a little bit of a ground, some grounding information here to start with.
Aubri Lancaster (12:08.283)
to give the, it doesn't have to be a 30 second version, but as long as you need to feel like you give the...
Aubri Lancaster (12:19.53)
Yeah, so if we want to contextualize it a little bit, I like to talk about it as both an orientation and an identity term. So as an orientation, it is an orientation where the person experiences little to no sexual attraction towards other people. Similarly, a romanticism is an orientation where the person experiences little to no romantic attraction towards other people.
And the way that our society frames sexual orientation is that it asks, what's your gender? What's the gender of the person you're attracted to? It assumes that those genders are going to be cisgender, that attraction is going to be heterosexual. And it assumes that attraction is going to be kind of this amalgamation of sexual, romantic and emotional and other things. And it assumes that attraction exists.
So part of what asexuality and aromanticism do is challenge some of these questions, just as much of the queer conversations challenge these questions. Instead of assuming what your gender is, we need to actually ask that question, what is my gender? And have other people who have actually asked that question of themselves to know whether or not we are attracted to them for the gender that they are. And then that attraction aspect.
we have to actually start to break that down and understand what attraction even means, that there is sexual attraction, where you may find another person hot or sexy, and or just sexually appealing. And then romantic attraction, where that can be aligned with limerence or just feeling drawn to another person in a romantic sense, finding another person romantically appealing. And then that emotional attraction of wanting to connect.
and bond over shared feelings. So as an orientation within this social framework that our society constructs, asexuality says, yes, some people are attracted to people of same or similar gender, some people are attracted to people of a different gender, some are attracted to all genders or regardless of gender, and some people are attracted to no gender. And it's just not a factor. And then as an identity term,
Aubri Lancaster (14:37.538)
Because the orientation is not innately about desire, we're talking attraction, there still comes in that question about whether or not a person wants to engage in sexual activity, which is a part of the asexual conversation and why so many people may get confused around it. So as an identity term, it is a way of taking agency and it is a rejection of compulsory sexuality, a model normativity and singleism.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:06.441)
That was good. You did a great job because I went into it. I think the only thing I get stuck on and you kind of hit it, but I still don't feel like I have a really good definition of like what is romanticism? Like I had this come up in the we've both done. What was the bonding project? And when I took their test, yeah, when I took their tests and started to ask about
Aubri Lancaster (15:08.01)
Hehehehehehe
Aubri Lancaster (15:12.599)
Thank you.
Aubri Lancaster (15:20.476)
Yeah. I had this come up in the, we've both done. Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (15:30.353)
Yeah, with Dr. Eli Shaff.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:36.721)
romanticism in your relationship or relationships. I was like, but what is that? How, how it was like, how often do you want romanticism in your, in your week or something like that? And I was like, I don't even know what that, I need some definitions. And of course, part of that thing was that they weren't giving you any definitions. It was for you to define. And, and I get really stuck in that space.
Aubri Lancaster (15:37.198)
romanticism in your relationship.
Aubri Lancaster (15:43.326)
you want romanticism in your... Mm-hmm. ..the...I was like, people don't even know that I need some definitions in the first part of that thing like if they wouldn't give me any definitions it's for you to define and... Yeah. ..and I get really stuck in that space. A lot of people do. That's... Once people realize they are on the asexual spectrum and another part of that also needs to be regarded as the fact that there is the gray area, there is, you know, all of these in-between places.
So it's not one or the other. There's all of this in between and all of these different circumstances. So yeah, with romantic attraction, the main components on that people kind of get stuck on is what kind of a relationship model do I want? Whether or not the person feels limerence, so that intense feeling of...
Infatuation, euphoria, heartbreak, cognitive obsession, intrusive thoughts, all of those aspects. A lot of people associate that with a crush or kind of that feeling of fireworks, butterflies in the stomach, those sorts of elements, which for a lot of people are intrinsically linked to sexual attraction, but not for everybody. And then there's another element kind of that performative romance.
how our society codes actions that are deemed romantic. And someone may experience limerence, may want a long-term partnered, committed relationship, but they may not relate to how society codes activities as romantic. So.
And people may not feel connected to any of those or specific ones of those. Some people may really enjoy romantic activities and may want a couple of partnership, but they don't experience limerence. Or they experience limerence, but they feel it's more of a platonic form of limerence, that they don't feel that need for a romantically coded relationship, or they may want long-term partnership, but it may not involve what we would code as.
Aubri Lancaster (18:02.782)
a romantic experience.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:05.937)
Without Disney movies, would there even be a term for romance?
Aubri Lancaster (18:11.402)
Yeah, well, that's a good question because culturally speaking, there's many cultures around the world that don't center romantic love and may even specifically avoid it as, you know, saying that is not a good reason to get into a relationship. You make terrible choices when you're experiencing romantic attraction. And that's why some cultures have arranged marriages. So not just so that they can control, you know, social.
pairings of families, but also so that they can be like, look, you're not going to find a good match on your own. You're going to fall in love with somebody that's completely wrong for you. We will find somebody that we know is a good match for you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:51.945)
Yeah, I had a client a while back that I dropped limerence in his lap as an idea and he had never heard of it before. And his eyes just got very big. And it was like this realization, I think a lot of people think that's what love is. And they get really stuck in that wild feeling that up and down, you know, the roller coaster ride. And then when that starts to calm down, they think they're out of love.
Aubri Lancaster (19:01.557)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (19:08.883)
Mm-hmm
Aubri Lancaster (19:17.17)
Mm-hmm
Aubri Lancaster (19:21.66)
Right, yeah, that assumption that if you find quote, the one that feeling will continue forever. And that's not even how biology works.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:22.605)
It's...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:26.005)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:33.853)
No, that's why we say crazy in love, I think comes probably from that space of the chaos that can be that limerence. Okay, so where does Aubri and Michelle come together in this? So a little bit of my history, and I think I talked about this with you, Aubri, when we did our consult, when I have a lot of questions around this.
Aubri Lancaster (19:38.734)
Mm-hmm. The chaos. Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (19:55.142)
And I think I talked about this with you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:01.001)
But I know I did, I'm pretty sure, because I remember part of the conversation. Back in 2015, I started dating a gentleman who was a lot younger than me. He was 24, I was 39. We all know what that was about, right? If I have to say it, I'll say it. But cougars are real, and I didn't know I was one. But I was in this very explorative phase of my life, and this very...
Aubri Lancaster (20:01.927)
I know I...
Back in 2015, I started dating a gentleman who was a
Aubri Lancaster (20:14.862)
We all know what that was about, right? I have to say it, I'll say it, but Cougars are real, and I didn't know I was one, but I was in this very explorative phase of my life, and this very dashing young man came into my world who I did not think was 24 at the time. He looked older than that. And then I met him at a party, I hugged him goodbye, they never wanted.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:30.005)
Dashing young man came into my world who I did not think was 24 at the time. He looked older than that. I met him at a party. I hugged him goodbye and never wanted to leave. Like it was just this instant, oh, this feels like home. You feel so he's safe. Like he's this big guy and he's the best hugger. My sister got to finally hug him the other day and she was like kept going back for more. So I met him and then I looked at his FetLife profile and saw that he was 24.
Aubri Lancaster (20:41.858)
Like it was just this instant, oh this feels like home, you feel safe, like this big guy and he's the best hugger. My sister got to finally hug him the other day and she was like, kept going back for more. So I met him and then I looked at his vet life profile and saw that he was 24 and went, oh shit. Right, because at that time I had all these young men hitting me up, like I'm okay, cute, and stuff, and I was like, no, no. I have young sons myself, like at that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:00.173)
shit, right? Because at that time I'd had all these young men hitting me up like on OKCupid and stuff and I was like, no, no. I have young sons myself, like at that point I think my oldest was probably like 18 or something like that. But anyways, again, the hug. I never wanted to leave, what have you. Sex at that time for me seemed amazing. I'll say in retrospect, I think I was
Aubri Lancaster (21:11.282)
I think my oldest was probably like 18 or something like that. But anyways, again the hug, I never wanted to leave, what have you. Sex at that time for me seemed amazing. I'll say in retrospect, I think I was, I didn't realize what I wanted in a sexual relationship. So it would be different for me now. But at that time I just thought the world revolved around this man.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:30.409)
I didn't realize what I wanted in a sexual relationship. So it would be different for me now. But at that time, I just thought the world revolved around this man. Oh, it was great. And then within a couple, like we went to our first event together, I think six weeks-ish. And that's how I can remember the timeline. By that event, we went a whole weekend in this hotel room and never had sex. And I was like,
Aubri Lancaster (21:39.99)
all this great and then within a couple like we went to our first event together I think six weeks ish and that's how I can remember the timeline by that event we went a whole weekend in this hotel room and never had sex and I was like he'd already had slowed down before that and I found myself he was the dominant I was very submissive to him
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:59.825)
It already had slowed down before that. And I found myself, he was the dominant. I was, I felt very submissive to him. And I found myself like tiptoeing around trying to figure out, I knew if I asked for sex, he would deny me because of the sadist in him. At least that's what I thought was happening. And so it was this weird like manipulation that I was having to kind of do to like see if we could like butt up to sex and get him to want to have sex, like to want to want to have sex.
Aubri Lancaster (22:06.55)
And I found myself tiptoeing around trying to figure out. I knew if I asked for sex, he would deny me. He was a facetist. And that's what I thought. And so it was this weird manipulation that I was having to kind of do to see if we could butt up to sex and get him to want to have sex, to want to want to have sex. And I remember being at this kink conference.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:28.729)
And I remember being at this kink conference and what he said he wanted to do was to take a shower with me and just wash my hair and take care of me. And why couldn't that be enough kind of like act of love for me? Why did it have to be the sex thing? And oh, did it confuse the shit out of me. And I, that was in July, I think, wasn't.
Aubri Lancaster (22:33.086)
And what he said he wanted to do was to take a shower with me and just wash my hair and take care of me. And why couldn't that be enough kind of like act of love for me? Why did we have to be this sex man? In order to confuse the show with me. And I, that wasn't, so I think wasn't.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:58.589)
Maybe October I started to say, why are we dating? We're barely having sex. This is supposed to be this hot cougar relationship where I'm really just here for the sex, dude, right? Like, why else would I be dating you? That was literally the words that came out of my mouth.
Aubri Lancaster (22:58.806)
And then in October I started to say, why are we dating? We're barely having sex. This is supposed to be this hot Cougar relationship where I'm really just here for some sex food, right? Like, why else would I be dating you? That was literally the words that came out of my mouth. I've grown a lot since then. And there's a lot in this relationship. Because eventually what happened was I'm a big sexy and I just kept searching.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:16.081)
I've grown a lot since then. I learned a lot in this relationship because eventually what happened was I'm a big sex geek and I just kept searching what is going on in this relationship. I just don't understand. And we've, we ended up breaking up about a week into the breakup. I come across the term free sexual.
Aubri Lancaster (23:27.09)
what is going on in this relationship, I just don't understand. And we ended up breaking up. About a week into the breakup, I come across the term, frasexual. And I looked on Facebook, I found one person on Facebook who had mentioned it in the post. And I...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:40.397)
And I looked on Facebook, I found one person on Facebook who had mentioned it in a post. And I like direct messaged her and said, what can you tell me about free sexuality? I don't trust to ask my partner about this because I won't believe what he tells me, right? And he didn't know even know the word, right? He was, when I did bring this to him, he was completely unaware. So.
Aubri Lancaster (23:51.246)
I direct messaged her and said, what can you tell me about race sexuality? I don't trust to ask my partner about this because I won't believe what he tells me. And he didn't know even know the word, right? Sure. When I did bring this to him, he was completely unaware. So this wonderfully kind, generous person was like, race sexuality is where you move beyond sexual attraction because of your connection.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:09.833)
So this wonderfully kind, generous person was like, fray sexuality is where you move beyond sexual attraction because of your connection. Like it's a, that's how they described it to me. And because it wasn't coming from my partner, I could kind of believe them. But the way it felt on the other side was that we were in this open relationship where he would literally fuck anything that moved. That's what it felt like to me. And he wouldn't touch me.
Aubri Lancaster (24:21.238)
Like it's a, that's how they describe it to me. Because it wasn't coming from my partner, I could kind of believe them. But the way it felt on the other side was that we were in this open relationship where he would literally talk anything that moved. That's what it felt like to me. And he wouldn't touch me. And it felt cruel. I had a hard time really wrapping my head around it. But it also made it make sense.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:38.545)
and it felt cruel. It had a hard time really wrapping my head around it, but it also made it make sense. And so I reconnected with him and I said, I've got some information I wanna share with you. And I shared the term free sexual and he was like, oh wow, this makes a lot of sense. I've been in this situation before and I've just always moved on. But you're somebody that I really care about.
Aubri Lancaster (24:48.926)
And so I reconnected with him and I said, I've got some information I want to share with you. And I shared the term presexual. And he was like, oh, wow, this makes a lot of sense. I've been in this situation before, and I've just always moved on. But you're somebody that I really care about. I just don't want to speak with you. And he was.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:07.301)
I just don't want to sleep with you. And it was hard and a wonderful, wonderful lesson in separating sex and love in a way I never had before. Because I totally believed I could have sex without love. I had a really hard time understanding or comprehending the idea of having love without sex. Because they were so paired together for me. So previous boyfriend Kyle.
Aubri Lancaster (25:13.39)
hard and a wonderful, wonderful lesson in separating sex and love in a way I never had before. Because I totally believe I can have sex without love. Yeah. I had a really hard time understanding or comprehending the idea of having love without sex. They were so paired together. So, previous boyfriend Kyle, I still love you to death. And it was a huge learning experience.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:37.809)
I still love you to death. And it was a huge learning opportunity for me. Yeah. So that's how it first entered my life. Yeah. Then fast forward.
Aubri Lancaster (25:42.55)
opportunity. So that's how it first entered my life. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:54.657)
Last, okay, so the spring of 2022, I was at a little fun little kinky board game weekend with a colleague and a whole bunch of her community. And at that event, I got to learn the term aphantasia, which is where we don't see pictures. Yeah. So her and I kind of learned this thing about each other. She was also...
Aubri Lancaster (25:54.878)
last okay so the spring of 2022 I was at a little fun little spooky board game weekend with a colleague and a whole bunch of her community and at that event I got to learn the term aphantasia. I'm not sure I'm familiar with that one.
She was also, there's 10 people at this weekend, little cabin in the woods. Three of us identified with Apantasia, like, was brought into this space. Which, it's supposed to be really rare, but I don't know, three out of ten doesn't seem very rare. But anyways. So, so her and I have been on this little journey of like, we're both circuit partners, and we're, you know, we always talk about how does Apantasia tie into our life.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:24.789)
10 people at this weekend, little cabin in the woods, three of us identified with Aphantasia when it was brought into the space, which it's supposed to be really rare, but I don't know. Three out of 10 doesn't seem very rare, but anyways. So her and I have been on this little journey of like, we're both circuit partners and we're, you know, we always talk about how does Aphantasia tie into our life. She sends me.
Aubri Lancaster (26:52.234)
She sends me a Marco Polo one day and she says, I'm reading this book on asexuality for a client that she was working with. And she said, I'm really resonating with some of the stories in here. I don't think I experienced sexual attraction. And I was like, yeah. I don't know that I do either. And it's just been this weird at, you know, I'm 48 now, but.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:53.301)
Marco Polo one day and she says, I'm reading this book on asexuality for a client that she was working with and she's like, I'm really resonating with some of the stories in here. I don't think I experienced sexual attraction. And I was like, yeah, I don't know that I do either. And it's just been this weird at, you know, 40, I'm 48 now, but this stuff was happening at 46, 47.
I'm just like, it's so wild to be at this point and still like pulling back layers and layers of this onion to be able like, as, as my, as I've learned more about myself, and I've built like my self worth up. The things that are able to show up about me are very different than I thought they were. Because like when I was using sex to
Aubri Lancaster (27:23.874)
I'm just like, it's so wild to be at this point and still like pulling back layers and layers of this onion to be able to like, as my, as I've learned more about myself and I've built like my self worth up, the things that are able to show up about me are very different than I thought they were. Because like when I was using sex to...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:51.337)
gain self-worth or what I felt was self-worth, like when I was using sex to make sure my relationship was okay or that I'm desirable or you know these other external reasons. Once I solved the self-worth piece, well what is my drive to have sex now? It changed for me and then when I started to really pick these little
Aubri Lancaster (27:51.49)
gained self-worth or what I felt was self-worth, like when I was using sex to make sure my relationship was okay, or that I'm desirable, or you know, these other external reasons. Once I solved the self-worth...
Aubri Lancaster (28:12.382)
Well, what is my drive to have sex now? It changed for me. And then when I started to really pick hearts and pieces away from each other, I think that may be that one thing that happened that one time at that one party where this guy was there, and I walked in and I saw him, and I went, holy shit. I think I'm going to go home with him tonight. And it scared the crap out of me. And a girlfriend said,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:20.329)
parts and pieces away from each other. I'm like, I don't, I think that might be that one thing that happened that one time at that one party where this guy was there and I walked in and I saw him and I went, holy shit, I think I'm going to go home with him tonight. And it scared the crap out of me. And a girlfriend said, do you want to get out of here and go play pool? And I said, yes, get me out of here. Because it's, it was such a foreign feeling to me.
Aubri Lancaster (28:41.87)
Do you want to get out of here and go play pool? And I said, yes, get me out of here. Because it was such a foreign feeling to me. When I look back at it now, I go, oh, I think it's because I don't experience sexual abduction. And that one little weird glimmer of it that popped up and kind of bit me ass for a second. Yeah. I can point to two times in my life
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:49.077)
when I look back at that now I go, oh, I think it's because I don't experience sexual attraction and that was that one little weird glimmer of it that popped up and kind of bit me in the ass for a second. Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (29:10.906)
I actually felt a really strong desire to have sexual interaction, but I still don't consider it sexual attraction because they were both at the beginning of relationships and we were making out and I knew that sex was on the table for them. And so it was kind of that.
You know, I like to describe libido as the body kind of just asking for an orgasm. And sexual attraction is what says, I want this orgasm with that person. And finding another person sexually appealing. So I was falling in love. I had those intense limerent feelings going on. My body was like, Hey, I'd like some activity. So we were in a position where my body was responding to the stimulation of the moment.
And in one of them, I actually remember kind of turning away and going like, okay, I need to calm down now. And they were very confused as to why I was trying to deescalate the situation. I'm kind of like, because I feel like I want more right now, but I didn't know how to articulate, but I don't necessarily want it with you. Like I did, but I didn't. Like it was, it just, it felt weird. Like there was this dissonance.
of like I'm really into this person, I really like this person, I enjoy this person touching me and cuddling me and all of this, like I am comfortable being sexual with this person but at the same time, like that feels like a weird thing to do with this person.
Aubri Lancaster (30:58.962)
And then the other situation, I just remember I couldn't get my panties off fast enough. And that was exciting, it was fun. But again, it wasn't so much like I am suddenly finding this person sexually irresistible or whatever. It was, my body really wants this right now. This person is, I am falling in love with this person.
This is what we do now, right? It's like, this is the activity we do now, right? Ha ha ha.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:32.053)
Yeah, when I pulled it apart, so one thing that my colleague and I did was we reached out to Aubri to do a consult because we kind of understand what was happening here and have different language for things and you were so helpful to really help me pull apart what kind of attractions do I have because the attraction for a person versus the desire for sex are very different.
Aubri Lancaster (31:53.43)
Mm-hmm. Because the attraction for a person.
difference and I'm a responsive desire person. I have to be aroused before the desire for sex shows up. So I know that part about me. So then I started to think well what does draw me to even want to do that part? Right? It's not I don't look at a person and go oh I just want to have sex with them. Yeah. I just don't. What I'll do is I'm really drawn to be close to them.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:01.953)
I'm a responsive desire person, so I have to be aroused before the desire for sex shows up. So I know that part about me. So then I started to think, well, what does draw me to even want to do that part? Right? The, it's not, I don't look at a person and go, oh, I just want to have sex with them or I just don't. What I'll do is I'm really drawn to be close to them physically.
I want intimacy like platonic intimacy. I want like I'm a touch pro, right? I want to know what their touch feels like. I want to be intellectually intimate with them. Like I have all these things that I want to do. I can feel that when I started to pull the sex part out of it, I was able to get a lot of clarity on what I was drawn to.
Aubri Lancaster (32:29.818)
I want intimacy, like platonic intimacy. I want, like, I'm a touch pro, right? I want to know what their touch feels like. I want to be intellectually intimate with them. Like, I have all these things that I want to do. I can feel that. When I started to pull the sex part out of it, I was able to get a lot of clarity on what I was drawn to. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:56.549)
And people, as I started to talk about this out loud, I remember before I had the consult with you, I was at an event with a bunch of sex therapists and whatnot, and I started to talk about the fact that I was gonna be talking with you. And they immediately, even in that sex therapy world, thought that when I said asexuality, that meant I didn't like sex. And I felt like maybe I don't wanna ever talk about this.
Aubri Lancaster (32:56.69)
And people, as I started to talk about this, I remember before I had the council with you, I was at an event with a bunch of sex therapists and all that. And I started to talk about the fact that I was going to be talking with you. And they immediately, even in that sex therapy world, thought that when I said asexuality, that meant I didn't like sex. And I felt like...
Maybe I don't want to ever talk about this. Maybe it's too much work to educate, and I'll just leave that part off of my list of labels or identities or orientations. Maybe it's just none of their business. I know how I work. Maybe that's all that's important. But then I keep finding myself talking about it anyway. So I was like, no, we should probably just go ahead and record an episode so that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:26.533)
maybe the word it's too much work to educate and I'll just leave that part off of my list of labels or identities or orientations like maybe it's just none of their business. I know how I work maybe that's all that's important but then I keep finding myself talking about it anyways and so I was like no we should probably just go ahead and record an episode so that
I can direct people here for a much deeper conversation than maybe I'm going to have with them over drinks. To explain that, I'm still having sex because I want to have sex.
Aubri Lancaster (34:00.746)
Uh huh. To explain that, I'm still having sex because I want to have sex.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:09.697)
what I'm not doing, and this is the part where their ego gets so wrapped up in this, is when I say I'm not sexually attracted to you.
Aubri Lancaster (34:09.866)
What I'm not doing, this is the part where their ego gets so wrapped up in this, is when I say I'm not sexually attracted to you. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's difficult. Feeling desired is very important to some people.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:24.689)
Yeah, and again, where I had to pull apart sex and love, they have to almost in a way pull, pull this idea of why people have sex apart into different things, like there's different buckets. And so how I know I work and I keep talking about like, we've got to create our own owners manuals. I remember picking up that terminology from like, poly podcast, what was it called?
Aubri Lancaster (34:29.407)
Mm-hmm
Aubri Lancaster (34:33.788)
idea of why.
things. Like there's different buckets. And so how I know I work and I keep talking about like we've got to create our own commerce manuals. I remember picking up that terminology.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:55.345)
I don't remember. I'm really bad at pulling these things up. And I need them was like a Rolodex of everything I've ever listened to or read in my history. So I could just be like, that's it. There was a poly podcast, polyamory podcast that used to talk a lot about building your owner's manual so that when you get a new partner, you can kind of let them know how you work. And I do that.
Aubri Lancaster (35:00.711)
everything I've ever listened to or read in my history. So I could just go, that's it. There was a PolyPod cam. PolyPod cam.
Aubri Lancaster (35:15.278)
Because when you get a new partner, you can kind of let them know how you work. Yeah. And you can then... Erotic template, menus, yeah, all those things. And that's part of, I think...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:20.645)
And that's part of, I think, part of our adult adventure is figuring out those things and noticing when they change and updating our manual. And rather than trying to fix us and get us back to the way we used to be, like my work lately on myself has been just accepting where things are, how I'm showing up, that that's okay, however it is. And letting go of the...
Aubri Lancaster (35:28.126)
Yeah. And noticing when they change and updating our manual. And rather than trying to fix us and get us back to the way we used to be, like my work lately on myself has been just accepting.
how I'm showing them that that's okay, however it is. Yeah. And letting go of the... But remember Michelle when you were the slutty woman that just liked to run around and have sex with people? Yeah. And I'm not her anymore. And it's okay to be either one of those or someone in the middle. Right? And now maybe I look more monogamous to a lot of people because...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:50.249)
But remember Michelle when you were the slutty woman that just liked to run around and have sex with people? Yeah, and I'm not her anymore. And it's okay to be either one of those or somewhere in the middle, right? And now maybe I look more monogamous to a lot of people because it's easier, because I don't walk into a space and look at people and go, do I wanna have sex with you?
Aubri Lancaster (36:12.526)
Because I don't walk into a space and look at people and go, do I want to have sex with you? It doesn't cross my mind. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:20.605)
It doesn't cross my mind.
go.
Aubri Lancaster (36:26.634)
It's funny because one of the things that I realized through this is just how much the term polyaffectionate resonates for me. That I've always had like multiple best friends, because that's the language we had. And you know, the idea of only having one best friend and that you have to rank your friendships and that there has to be this.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:34.426)
Mmm.
Aubri Lancaster (36:55.67)
you know, specific bonds. And yet I loved meeting new people and building new bonds and making new friends and having those deep conversations and connections. And they didn't have to be sexual or romantic, but they were still on par and important to me. Like I've had relationships that were
you know, sexual romantic, where they didn't understand the relationship I had with some of my friends, and that I was not going to de-prioritize those friendships for them. And it wasn't until I started to really understand asexuality that I started to understand why that was so important to me, that that's how I connect with so many people in my life.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:49.353)
I like that I wrote it down. I know I've heard you say it before when we talked before about this, but if I wrote it down, it's in my pile of post-its over here that need to be sorted, but polyaffectionate definitely rings true for me. I was at a party the other day and I just, I'm perpetually an educator, right? I really question if I should learn how to take that hat off sometimes.
Aubri Lancaster (37:53.09)
Thank you.
Aubri Lancaster (38:08.094)
I'm perpetually an educator, right? I really question if I should learn how to take that hat off sometimes. But my husband assures me that I've always been this way, even before I started doing the work that I do. So I don't have to think like I'm working all the time. It's just kind of who I am. So I'm at this cool party thing the other day. And this guy is sitting with me. And I don't know. Somehow, again, we start talking about it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:16.245)
But my husband assures me that I've always been this way even before I started doing the work that I do, so I don't have to think like I'm working all the time. It's just kind of who I am. So I'm at this pool party thing the other day, and this guy is sitting with me and I don't know, somehow again we start talking about I'm responsive desire and what does that mean? And then I bring up the asexuality part.
Aubri Lancaster (38:39.154)
response and desire and what does that mean and then I bring up the asexuality part and how I don't experience sexual attraction and I do the whole explanation that I just did here about this desire to have closeness that eventually like just having skin to skin contact and soft touch and if you've got great touch then I'm like oh what would it feel like if you touched me somewhere else like it's not a sexual attraction it's the curiosity of like
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:44.233)
I don't experience sexual attraction and I do the whole explanation that I just did here of like, I get this desire to have closeness that eventually like just having skin-to-skin contact and soft touch and if you've got great touch then I'm like, oh what would it feel like if you touched me somewhere else? Like it's not a sexual attraction, it's the curiosity of like taking this to a different, a different, at least that's how I see it. And you might read it differently, I have no idea.
Aubri Lancaster (39:08.174)
picking this to a different, at least that's how I see it. You might read it differently, I have no idea. But fast forward, we're in the house, in the crowded kitchen, I'm trying to squeeze my way around people to get to the little buffet of food. Same man is standing there. So I've made little jokes with, at times, we share a love of the same news program. And I'm like, oh, you're my breaking points boyfriend. I have two of them, so Holly and.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:14.765)
Fast forward, we're in the house and I'm in a crowded kitchen. I'm trying to squeeze my way around people to get to the little buffet of food. Same man is standing there who I've made little jokes with at times. We share a love of the same news program and I'm like, oh, you're my breaking points boyfriend. I have two of them. So I'm Polly. I have Polly news boyfriends. And so
Aubri Lancaster (39:38.178)
have poly-news for friends. And so I come up behind him, and I touched him on the torso to kind of like, hey, I'm here. I'm just going to kind of move around you. And he's like, oh. And I said, now be careful. I might touch you enough that I might want to have sex. It's not about you, but the touch might make me want more touch. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:43.813)
I like come up behind him and I like touched him on the torso to kind of like, hey, I'm here. I'm just going to kind of move around you. And he's like, oh, and I said, now be careful. I might touch you enough that I might want to have sex. Like it's not about you, but the touch might make me want more touch. Kind of building off. Does that still count?
Aubri Lancaster (40:08.798)
Like in my head I go, that's not sexual attraction, right? What I recall so much from our thing was that sexual attraction is like directed at a person. Yeah, I mean, it's subjective. There is, to some degree, you get to decide whether or not you consider that sexual attraction. I think it's also important to recognize the concept of non-concordant arousal.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:11.901)
Like in my head I go, that's not sexual attraction, right? Because what I recall so much from our thing was that sexual attraction is like directed at a person.
Aubri Lancaster (40:39.306)
Genital response does not necessarily equal subjective arousal and that bodies can respond to sexual stimulation, whether or not the brain actually wants that or is in the right head space for that or wants it from that person. Just because the body can get aroused and respond to sexual touch.
Like, there's many examples in our society of people who are not heterosexual, who are in heterosexual relationships, who are still able to have sex, who are still able to get aroused, who are still able to climax, and all of these things. And yet, they finally realize at some point that they are not attracted to the gender that they are with. And because of the fact that they generally will have another gender that they can point to, they can say, oh, here's the problem.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:32.104)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (41:33.822)
I'm not sexually attracted to this gender, I'm sexually attracted to this gender instead. And yet, when it comes to asexuality, we don't have that other to point to. So we're perpetually in that place of, you know, kind of, well, the body responds. I can get aroused, I can get into this physical state, I can enjoy the pleasure, but there is some disconnect here. And
It's not that I'm not in love with this person for, you know, for some situations. It's not that I don't enjoy this kind of stimulation. So what is it? And so finding that language about sexual attraction is, that was a huge key for me too, because that was part of it. When I heard the term asexual, the very first time I heard it as the other end of a line from hypersexual. And it was on one of those charts in a queer training
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:21.826)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (42:28.642)
you know, femininity to masculinity, hetero to homosexual, and then one of them, like they just had an expanded version of this, and one of them was asexual to hypersexual. So that was the first context that I actually heard the term. And I remember putting myself towards the asexual end of that spectrum, but I was understanding it as more a libido than anything. And for some people, that is how they connect to asexuality, which is...
why it gets so frustrating because it's so easy for us to have misconceptions about what asexuality is and not relate to it because of one specific pathway. But there's so many different pathways to asexuality and for a lot of people it's about that sexual attraction. That's one of the primary pathways for a lot of people but it's not the only one. So you know it was when I finally heard the term in relation to whether or not it was part of the
you know, LGBTQIA plus community. It was somebody saying, well, asexual people are LGBTQ. And I went, well, of course they are, right? Then the acronym, I kind of knew that, but I never like, I never spent any time thinking about it because we make these automatic assumptions. Then I went down the rabbit hole and found the language of sexual attraction versus romantic attraction and aesthetic attraction, sensual attraction, emotional attraction, platonic attraction. And that's where my brain just went.
Oh, so this is first of all an orientation. That was a big key for me for relating to it to understand it as an orientation, not just this libido scale. And also to understand that language to recognize that I did experience romantic attraction. And that's what I had been mistaking for sexual attraction all this time. But when I really started to break it down and went, Oh, yeah, no, I, I was
in romantic attraction all that time.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:29.565)
Yeah, and when you don't, it's not like a light switch turns on or off. And so you can say, I remember when I had this thing and now it's gone. Like we can't see the difference. Right. And I, and I, I know now when I'm in these spaces with people that I'm drawn to for lots of different reasons, whether it be aesthetics or intellectual attraction, or again, that desire to just have closeness with them. Now I'm looking at it from a place of like.
Aubri Lancaster (44:34.739)
I remember when I had this thing and now it's gone. You can't see the difference. Yeah. Right? And I know now when I'm in these spaces with people that I'm drawn to.
their aesthetics or intellectual attraction or desire to have closeness with them. Now I'm looking at it from a place of like, oh it makes so much sense now that I never
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:59.349)
Oh, it makes so much sense now that I never clock. I don't clock the sexual attraction piece. And when I was talking about it at this pool party, the guy goes, man, I'm kind of envious because like my world revolves around sexual attraction and I wish it didn't sometimes. And I said, yeah, and I'm kind of envious of you, too, because I want to know what that feels like in a way, because I've had that one little time and it scared the shit out of me.
Aubri Lancaster (45:07.562)
And when I was talking about it at the pool party, the guy goes, man, I'm kind of envious. He's like, my world revolves around sexual attraction, and I wish it didn't sometimes. And I said, yeah, and I'm kind of envious of you, too, because I want to know what that feels like in a way. Because I've had that one little time, and it scared the shit out of me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:27.837)
Like I would like to be somewhere, could we just merge and get somewhere in the middle of a nice happy medium? That might be kind of interesting. So I just like, it's not that people in the world here, it's not that I don't like sex.
Aubri Lancaster (45:27.97)
Like, I would like to be somewhere, could we just merge and get somewhere in the middle of a nice happy medium? That might be kind of interesting. So, I just like, it's not that people in the world here, it's not that I don't like sex. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:44.861)
it takes a lot of work for me to get to the sexual desire part. Because I don't even have sexual attraction working for me. You know what I mean? Like it's, it feels like you can approach me for it. And you better be really good at hearing no, and be willing to go through that kind of.
Aubri Lancaster (45:46.534)
to get to the sexual desire part. Mm-hmm. We don't even have sexual desire.
You know what I mean? Like it's, it feels like you can approach me for it and you better be really good at hearing those and be willing to go through that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:11.137)
field of potential nose because my partner, he's so good at knowing that I might not get there. I might not get to the point of sexual desire and I have to know that I feel safe to say, yeah, this isn't the thing. But if you want to come cuddle with me and show me that you've got really great conscious touch, it might work, you know?
Aubri Lancaster (46:11.31)
field of potential nose because my partner, he's so good at knowing that I might not get there. I might not get to the point of sexual desire. And I have to know that I feel safe to say, yeah, this isn't the thing. But if you want to come cuddle with me and show me that you've got really great conscious touch, it might work.
Yeah. This idea that has to be this all or nothing thing or that sexual activity is the pinnacle of connection. That's where we have to start deconstructing things and start to recognize that there are so many different forms of intimacy and connection and pleasure and attraction and all of these different ways that we have of relating to people. Sexual is...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:48.501)
Great.
Aubri Lancaster (47:06.914)
just one of many, many options. And yet our society says that, well, that has to be the main one and that has to be the goal. And anything else is less than. And so we're starting to finally have the language to say, that's not my goal. I have other things that bring me pleasure that I can center in a relationship.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:18.89)
Right.
Aubri Lancaster (47:36.01)
other ways of connecting that are my preference.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:41.617)
Yeah, that's the intimacy lab. This is what I want to do here is kind of blow open what we think about when we think about intimacy. You know, the censorship has not helped this at all because we have to use code words for everything, right? And so intimacy is code word for sex. And in my work, most of my work is so much on the platonic side of intimacy. It's delicious.
Aubri Lancaster (47:48.507)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (47:52.582)
Mm-mm. Right?
Aubri Lancaster (48:08.959)
It's delicious. It's so delicious. And sometimes we get like in circuit partner work, if erotic does come into that space. Sometimes you'll hear clients say things like, after they've had an erotic experience and we have...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:11.477)
Like it's so delicious. And sometimes we get like in surrogate partner work, if erotic does come into that space, sometimes you'll hear clients say things like, after they've had an erotic experience and we have our pillow talk time, right? Where we're cuddled up and just basking in our oxytocin together. They'll say, oh, this is like, this is really what intimacy is, right? It's this kind of closeness. They learn.
Aubri Lancaster (48:27.118)
cuddled up and just basking in our oxytocin together. They'll say, oh, this is, like, this is.
Aubri Lancaster (48:36.884)
This kind of closeness. They learn that the sex...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:41.449)
that the sex part is just, it's just part of a myriad of ways of connecting. But I think that a lot of people in our society use sex as a regulator.
Aubri Lancaster (48:48.822)
Yeah.
I think that a lot of people in our society use sex as a regulator. That's the only way they see intimacy and it becomes, I think, a burden.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:58.961)
And that's the only way they see intimacy. And it becomes, I think, a burden on their relationship.
Aubri Lancaster (49:05.93)
Yeah, that could be a challenge when that is what somebody needs to become regulated. And for another, they need to be regulated in order to access that. And, you know, and even the term erotic can be non-sexual. Like that's not even innately always sexual, though often it is given that context.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:14.857)
Yep. That's my first marriage.
Aubri Lancaster (49:33.558)
I actually like when people in social media use the term spicy as their alternative to sexual. I think that at least helps to make it clear that it's not all kinds of intimacy or the only kind of intimacy. They're talking about spicy intimacy or spicy time. I think that's cute.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:40.906)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:55.649)
careful Aubri because now that's going to be on like the flag terms that we can't use anymore. They're gonna
Aubri Lancaster (49:59.93)
Yeah, right? We'll just have to keep coming up with new ones.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:05.181)
Oh my goodness. It's so hard and it's so frustrating and it makes me wonder how are we supposed to even navigate social media as professionals in sexuality? And, but what are other options? I mean, I just feel like we're, our hands are tied in so many ways and the people that decide to step off of social media, I just don't understand how are we supposed to, like it's a hard, we're already in a hard career. Like.
Aubri Lancaster (50:12.993)
Thank you.
Aubri Lancaster (50:19.159)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (50:31.438)
It's a hard, we're already in a hard career. Yeah, right. People are not knocking on our doors, standing in line waiting for their first chance to work with us. We have to.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:36.521)
People are not knocking on our doors, standing in line, waiting for their first chance to work with us. We have to go out and acquire clients and educate them everywhere as to why they need to have extra support or what we can provide them in a professional container. And we can't talk about it.
Aubri Lancaster (50:47.278)
and educate them everywhere as to why they need to have extra support and what we can provide them in a professional container. Yeah, I mean, sex educator, sexuality educator, however you want to say it, it isn't even a job listing on job sites like sex therapist I found on LinkedIn, but not sex educator. Like you can't even have your own
I mean, obviously it's even more of a problem for anything, any sort of bodywork. But even just sexuality educator, this is a thing that exists. Why is it not even an option?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:35.069)
Yeah, and it's such a...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:39.621)
Underappreciated. Roll.
Aubri Lancaster (51:43.446)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:45.481)
Like I feel guilty sometimes when I compare like how easy it is for me to make a buck because I get to touch people compared to people that don't get to touch people. It's unfair and we need more of the sex education, preferably before they show up at my door.
Aubri Lancaster (52:03.382)
and you need more for sex education. Yeah, it's difficult. I show up at my dorm. Right? Finding even the space to bring that in as an educational field. Like in the under 18 crowd, it's expected to be done by the health teacher at a school. So.
There's a few people out there that actually go into schools as professional sexuality educators, but it's really rare. Usually the school district just has their own curriculum that they buy from some source that they give to their teachers to administer. So it's not even being administered by people who are trained in this field. And then on a college level, you may have human sexuality professionals. You may actually have people who actually know what they're talking about in that setting, but it's an elective.
You know, it's not like it's a mandatory part of the curriculum. And then that's why I actually loved doing the in-home parties because it was one of the few places that I would be talking to people that had never had these conversations before. People who had never had an orgasm, people who had no idea about the need for clitoral or glands stimulation. You know, there's just.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:56.948)
Yeah.
Aubri Lancaster (53:23.042)
so much basic information that they had never even heard. They were using baby oil as a lube or whatever. So that would be the very first time they ever heard this information. And sometimes it was because they went to a friend's house or sometimes I did bachelorette parties. And then I'd really get people that, they were there for the bachelorette, they weren't there for me. When I did this for fun parties, they were there for me.
Bachelorette parties, you know, I'd have grandma sitting in the corner And you know, I got tons of great feedback But there was always a couple that were just like I don't even know what I got myself into
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:04.309)
But at least you got paid. At least that's what I found in the toy world was that you could make good money doing that. You were getting...
Aubri Lancaster (54:07.895)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. That was my primary income. That's why I went I just went back to it
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:15.265)
Yeah, I mean, it was a way to educate and get paid, which those two things don't go together all that often, unfortunately.
Aubri Lancaster (54:19.466)
Yeah, that was where the money was, was in the sales. Those two things don't go together. Mm-mm. No, I have to fight for a paycheck as an educator with that solely being my work. I thought, like, hey, I'll go do conferences and stuff. That'll be a few thousand dollars, right? Out of my pocket. Out of my pocket, right? Yeah, I went and, you know, I've spoken for several different conferences and a couple of them have paid me, but most of them...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:36.297)
out of your pocket.
Aubri Lancaster (54:48.31)
I had to pay for the registration and the honor of speaking. There was no honorarium of any kind. You had to go through the process of putting in the application, creating an entire abstract and the slides and all of the time and effort going into that for their benefit while their vendor room is packed with people that paid to sell their products at that event and yet they're not paying the speakers except maybe the keynote.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:18.217)
Yeah, and travel and.
Aubri Lancaster (55:21.566)
Oh my God, I've done so much through virtual, thank goodness, but travel is just so much more on top of that. I spent $500 traveling to a conference earlier this year for the honor of presenting and paying for my registration.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:38.705)
I just bought as we wrap up the year, I was starting to think about my taxes. And I was like, you're doing okay this month, Michelle. I think you should go ahead and purchase all those conference tickets that you need to, I don't need to go to them, but in San Diego, the Embodilab is coming for a big somatic conference.
Aubri Lancaster (55:52.001)
Mmm.
Aubri Lancaster (55:57.742)
San Diego.
Aubri Lancaster (56:02.174)
Perfect semantics.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:05.181)
And I'm like, well, that's my jam and it's in my backyard. It'd be great for networking. It'll be, you know, I'll learn something on top of it and I don't even have to travel, right? Okay, and then Sex Positive Con will be coming up in February also. And I'm like, again, it's in my back. I mean, it's Burbank, but it's in my backyard and it'd be good networking. Yeah, oh, good, I'll see you there.
Aubri Lancaster (56:06.942)
and it's in my backyard. It would be great for networking. It'll be, you know, I'll learn something on top of it, and I don't even have to trap it, right? Okay, and then Sex Positive Con will be coming up in February also. And then, like, again, it's in my back- I mean, it's for banks, but it's in my backyard. I'm planning to go to that one, too. Oh, good, I'll see you there. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:33.861)
And then I'm like...
Aubri Lancaster (56:35.714)
We'll actually meet in person.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:37.297)
I know. DC's got a couple of conferences. One, Psych Networker, I go to every year. It's like Comic-Con for me as a therapy nerd. I don't go, because I'm not presenting there, but it's like, I just, I like that space. I love all the presenters. It's top notch. And then there's another conference that hit our radar that their theme is sex this year. And it's like the...
Aubri Lancaster (56:46.711)
I don't go because I'm not presenting there, but it's like, I just, I like that space. I love all the presenters.
And then there's another conference that hit our radar that they're being with sex this year. And it's like the, something analytics, it's some division of the APA or something. I don't know. You put in a proposal for that. We'll be back.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:07.817)
something analytics, it's some division of the APA or something. I don't know. We put in a proposal for that, but we haven't heard back yet. But I'm like, I'm going to go, whether I get picked or not, just cause it's good to be represented there. A bunch of us, Sergant partners are. And then of course, ASAC coming around the bed again. Like we just, it's, it's like, I like doing these things and it costs a lot of money.
Aubri Lancaster (57:18.798)
I go whether I get picked or not, just because it's good to be represented there, a bunch of assertive partners are. And then of course ASAC coming around to bed again. Like we just, it's like, I like doing these things and it costs me. Mm-hmm. And it seems like I have a partner that does that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:38.481)
And since I have a partner that does well enough that I don't have a big like, Michelle's got to hit the hit a certain number or we're not going to be able to pay our mortgage. Um, I feel like I can do it. And so it's kind of like, I have enough privilege to be able to go do those things and kind of try to help raise awareness to, you know, body workers and all that goodness that
Aubri Lancaster (57:43.734)
I don't have a big like, Michelle's gotta hit a certain number or we're not gonna be able to pay our mortgage. I feel like I can do it, and so it's kind of like I have enough privilege to be able to go do those things and kind of try to help raise awareness to, you know, body workers and all that goodness that doesn't get talked about enough. I get to go, but it's a lot.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:08.233)
doesn't get talked about enough. I get to go, but it's a lot.
Aubri Lancaster (58:13.314)
I hear that. Yeah, I have the support from my family here so that, you know, my bills are paid and, you know, I'm not reliant on my income to survive, which I very much appreciate and recognize as a privilege, but I'm not making enough to really do anything particular fun with it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:36.485)
Yeah, yeah, I guess this is my fun. And at least I can write it off as a business expense, I guess, right? Here's the plus side. Okay, I'm thinking, is there anything else I wanna say about this topic?
Aubri Lancaster (58:39.944)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (58:45.062)
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Is there anything else I want to say about?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:57.289)
I think what I'm learning is that, again, this goes back to do whatever works for you.
Aubri Lancaster (58:57.392)
I think what I'm learning is that, again, this goes back to...
Aubri Lancaster (59:03.834)
you. I feel a real strong need to understand myself in having the language that you helped me with really help put those puzzle pieces together to where my nervous system was, oh okay we know the labels, we have the idea of how this fits, we can relax a little bit. I love understanding myself.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:06.685)
Like I feel a real strong need to understand myself in having the language that you helped me with really help put those puzzle pieces together to where my nervous system was, oh, okay, we know the labels, we have the idea of how this fits, we can relax a little bit. I love understanding myself a little bit more than I did the day before. And you've certainly been really, really helpful in that. So thank you for the work that you do.
Aubri Lancaster (59:29.095)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (59:33.806)
Thank you for the work that you do. My pleasure. I'm glad it's been helpful. Do you have anything you want to add before we?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:36.777)
How can, yeah, do you have anything you want to add before we let people know where they can find you?
Aubri Lancaster (59:44.382)
Um, yeah, my website is ace sex education.com. I'm also on Instagram and technically on TikTok. I need to be a little more active over there and Facebook.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:55.785)
It's hard to talk about sex on TikTok though.
Aubri Lancaster (59:58.982)
Yeah, I haven't, I don't know, I feel like I enjoy doing the infographics on Instagram. That's where I feel a little bit more comfortable when I get on the video. I feel like either I'm being really fake, or I'm being way too honest. I don't know where. Yeah, it's hard to find that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:06.674)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:19.057)
I say, I don't make organic TikTok stuff. I'll throw a teaser from this interview onto TikTok. I don't get into, I don't feel real comfortable there either. And I feel really comfortable in a lot of other places, but that one is, I can't crack that one. Or I don't want to or something like that. I don't know. Well, thanks so much for being here.
Aubri Lancaster (01:00:40.631)
Yeah.
I hear that. Well, thanks so much for being here. I hope you enjoyed this video.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:47.665)
If I think of anything else, I'll hit you up and report back or something. I don't know. But I think I, I'm just excited to like, I don't like to be in the closet about anything. And the more I talk about this specifically of like how I understand my sexuality around this, I get a lot of people going, oh, well, that makes me question if I have sexual attraction. Right. And I think these conversations are just really important to get us out of the, um, the normative.
Aubri Lancaster (01:00:54.283)
I think I'm just excited to like I don't like to be in the closet about anything and the more I talk about this Specifically of like how I understand my sexuality around this I get a lot of people going Well, that makes me question
Aubri Lancaster (01:01:16.302)
the normative, general ideas of what we think sex is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:18.333)
general ideas of what we think sex is or what we think attraction is or what we think relationships look like or all these different components that we can really break apart into little tiny slivers and create the version that works for us.
Aubri Lancaster (01:01:25.066)
relationships look like, all these different components that we can really break apart into little tiny slivers and create the...
Aubri Lancaster (01:01:36.282)
And that's such a huge part of it is because I often get people who are wondering, you know, am I asexual, am I on the asexual spectrum, you know, can I use this language? And I think that's kind of the point though is yes, please use the language because regardless of where you might be on the spectrum or not on the spectrum, we still deal with compulsory sexuality. We still deal with the motto normativity. You know, compulsory sexuality, the assumption that everyone wants and needs sex.
and that we must be defined by some kind of sexual attraction. And that a model normativity that Elizabeth Brake coined the term for, that hierarchical prioritization of sexual, romantic, exclusive, amorous relationships as the pinnacle of human relationships that everyone must aspire to, that relationship escalator that completely ignores the value of platonic relationships, of platonic...
of non-sexual activities and pleasures and intimacy and simply by having that language, you know, whether or not you want to explore your place on these spectrums, you can still explore what non-sexual pleasure and non-sexual intimacy means for you and how you might find some of those experiences to
be what you want to prioritize in a relationship. And maybe decenter sex doesn't necessarily mean eliminate sex, doesn't mean sex isn't important for a person, and maybe it isn't, but it just means that maybe that isn't the most important thing for a person.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:18.749)
that we need at all. I mean, we don't need sex, right? But a lot of relationships suffer when the only focus of connection is around sexual contact, right? And that is the thing that I think as a culture, we just really got to look at connection in such a bigger way because if I'm married to you or not married to you.
Aubri Lancaster (01:03:20.5)
Yeah
Aubri Lancaster (01:03:26.582)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (01:03:30.646)
Right.
Aubri Lancaster (01:03:39.391)
sure we just really got.
bigger way because if I'm married...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:48.125)
and you think you're gonna cash out that sex machine on a regular basis and not feed me in other ways, I'm gonna run out real quick. And that is from somebody who actually enjoys sex and likes to have sex. And in the other realm of people that are sexual pulsed, still get to be in relationship.
Aubri Lancaster (01:03:48.43)
I think you're going to cash out that sex machine on a regular basis and not feed me in other ways. I'm going to run out real quick. And that is from somebody who actually enjoys sex and likes to have sex. In the other realm of people that are sexually pulsed still get to be in relationships.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:04:13.661)
Our value is not on how we show up sexually in relationship.
Aubri Lancaster (01:04:19.254)
Yeah, that a sexless marriage doesn't have to be sad or a problem that for some people, a sexless marriage is the goal. That is the ultimate kind of relationship that they want to be in. And that just in all of these aspects, regardless of orientation, we can make space for people to just not want sex or to not prioritize sex.
to have other or to prioritize solo sex. That it's okay even when in a committed partnership to prefer solo sex. And that's a hard one for people to wrap their head around.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:02.269)
There's nothing wrong with you. We look at that and we pathologize it all at the time. What's wrong is when you're not talking to each other and coming to some mutuality in how we're going to maneuver in the relationship when somebody's not talking about it and they feel like either it's the one direction of my partner took sex away from me or from the side of I'm doing this and I don't want to do it.
Aubri Lancaster (01:05:07.454)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (01:05:22.558)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (01:05:28.272)
I'm doing this and I don't want to do it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, obligatory sex. Right? Service-centered relationship. We don't think we can ask for something else. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:30.385)
and then all the gap in between, right? That's because we don't think we can ask for something else or we don't know these things about ourselves and we get into these relationships just not knowing and having expectations placed on us by society rather than actually negotiating what these relationship agreements look like within the partnership or whatnot.
Aubri Lancaster (01:05:48.873)
Mm-hmm.
Aubri Lancaster (01:05:55.466)
Right. The idea that you can even negotiate any of that is relatively new in human conversations, or at least recorded history.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:06:01.536)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:06:05.713)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm hoping it's changing. So we are definitely probably part of that conversation today. Thanks so much, Aubri. We'll see you again soon.
Aubri Lancaster (01:06:12.042)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, thank you.
