Carrie Ancel, LMHC
Navigating Intimacy, Boundaries, and Connection: Insights from Michelle Renee and Carrie
In a heartfelt and engaging discussion, Michelle Renee, a human connection coach and cuddle therapist, and Carrie Ancel, a therapist and non-monogamy educator, share personal anecdotes and professional insights about intimacy, boundaries, and the complexities of human connection. Their conversation is filled with humor, vulnerability, and profound lessons learned through both personal experience and professional practice.
Embarrassing Moments: Finding Humor and Lessons in Vulnerability
Michelle and Carrie open up about their most embarrassing moments in the bedroom, revealing the universal nature of such experiences. Carrie recounts a slippery mishap involving satin sheets, a second-floor bedroom, and an unexpected flight toward a window screen. Though the situation was mortifying at the time, it provided them with practical skills (like learning to re-screen a window) and a lifelong aversion to satin bedding.
Michelle shares her story of an ill-fated attempt at anal sex with a partner who was eager but inexperienced. Despite her initial hesitation and clear boundaries, she went along with it, leading to a messy outcome. Reflecting on this experience, Michelle emphasizes the importance of trusting one’s instincts and setting firm boundaries, a skill she has honed over years of personal growth and professional work.
The Evolution of Boundaries
Both Michelle and Carrie delve into the importance of boundaries in their personal lives and professional practices. Michelle candidly discusses how her early struggles with enforcing boundaries stemmed from a history of coercion around sex. Through her work as a relational-based touch professional, she has learned to prioritize self-trust and avoid self-abandonment.
Carrie echoes these sentiments, highlighting how respecting boundaries—both one’s own and others’—is a critical aspect of building healthy relationships. Their conversation underscores the necessity of clear communication and compassionate willingness in intimate interactions.
Supporting Clients Through Life Transitions
The discussion shifts to the rewarding aspects of their work, particularly in supporting clients navigating significant life transitions. Michelle shares how her practice has recently focused on older women with sexual assault histories and unresolved mother wounds. Helping these clients work through trauma and reclaim their sense of self has been deeply fulfilling for her.
Carrie brings attention to the challenges faced by people in perimenopause and menopause, including the impact on mental health and sexuality. They share insights from the book What Fresh Hell Is This?, which explores the intersection of hormonal changes, mental health, and identity. Both of them highlight the lack of research and resources available for this demographic, emphasizing the need for more professionals addressing these issues.
Bridging Professional Expertise with Personal Growth
Michelle reflects on how her work has evolved to better align with her values and strengths. She acknowledges the importance of referring clients to other professionals when their needs fall outside her comfort zone or expertise. By collaborating with sex workers and other practitioners who share a common language, she ensures continuity of care while honoring her boundaries.
Carrie shares similar sentiments, emphasizing the value of interdisciplinary approaches to supporting clients. They highlight the importance of recognizing one’s limits and seeking partnerships with other professionals to provide comprehensive care.
The Gift of Connection
As the conversation winds down, Michelle and Carrie reflect on the importance of meaningful connections. They discuss the significance of preserving family stories and the bittersweet realization of the things left unsaid with loved ones who have passed. Michelle recounts her mother’s symbolic gesture of promising to "come back" through a ceiling fan, a poignant reminder of their shared humor and love.
Looking Ahead
The dialogue concludes with a discussion about the complexities of attending professional conferences in politically and socially challenging climates. Both Michelle and Carrie express nuanced perspectives about balancing professional momentum with ethical considerations, highlighting the importance of safety and representation in their field.
Final Thoughts
This conversation between Michelle Renee and Carrie serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of self-awareness, boundaries, and connection in both personal and professional spheres. Their stories and insights offer a compassionate lens through which to view the messy, beautiful, and deeply human experiences of intimacy and growth.
Carrie Ancel (they/she) is a mental health counselor and sex therapist in the Seattle, Washington area. Find Carrie at https://www.branchingoutwellbeing.com/ and https://www.facebook.com/nonmonogamyacademy/
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Human Connection Coach and Cuddle Therapist. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectioncoach.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/podcast
Links from today's show:
What Fresh Hell Is This?: Perimenopause, Menopause, Other Indignities, and You by Heather Corinna: https://amzn.to/3BKQ5KM
Polysecure and Polywise both by Jessica Fern: https://amzn.to/4fx1dsy
Wheel of Consent: https://schoolofconsent.org
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:22)
Welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. We're doing another We're Not Really Strangers edition. And we play this on every episode. But this specifically, when I say that, it means that today, Carrie has responded to something I put on Facebook about, hey, wanna come answer cards with me? And I just had a lot of people actually respond yes, which surprised me because I was joking when I initially said that.
Because I didn't know so many people were like, yeah, put me on a podcast. I mean, some people are on them all the time. Like I'm on them a lot, so it's not a big deal. But I even had like my best friend from Michigan came on and recorded with Neither the Day and she's never recorded a podcast ever. And we had so much fun because we played the friendship edition. And I mean, there were tears involved. And we, it was just, it was lovely. And I thought, what a lovely gift to leave. Like.
Carrie (01:08)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:21)
in her case, she also happens to have stage four breast cancer and two little kids. And to think that one day her kids will be able to watch her just be like Laura the person and not just Laura the mom. I lost my mom at, I was like 26, 27. And I wish I could know her as the woman and not just my mom. Right. So.
Carrie (01:25)
Oh.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a whole different
layer.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:49)
It's a different layer and is one of those things I didn't know I wanted back then. But now it's like, oh, that would be really cool. So I just think having these around, like my kids will always have this stuff for me. I had my mom was a musician, so we have a lot of her performing and like talking to audiences and things like that, which is really comforting to be able to throw on sometimes.
Carrie (01:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Yeah, I can imagine. My mom actually has done a radio show for 30 plus years. And so I have a lot of her interviews and things she's done and a lot of talking, your speaking engagements she's done in classes she's taught. So I am pretty lucky in that regard.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:30)
Yeah, I think it's that we have lots more just because of cell phones, right? We have so much more photos of us and video of us than when we even in the convenience days of like the VHS camcorder right? That was really convenient at the time, but not nearly as convenient as what we have now. So.
Carrie (02:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
this thing just that's in our hands all the time.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:53)
Who knew we'd have a computer in our pocket all the time? Yeah, let alone a calculator, right? That was what we were told is you're not gonna have a calculator on you all the time.
Carrie (02:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I remember that. Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:03)
And now
I can literally probably talk to my watch and have it do my math for me. I'm pretty sure if I needed it to, right? I never asked it to.
Carrie (03:09)
I don't think mine's
that smart, but it's close.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:12)
I feel like if I just did like a, okay, you know, I wonder if we tried it here. I'm curious.
Carrie (03:18)
What is blank times blank?
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:22)
What is 4 plus 4?
Yep, it equals eight, it says on my screen. It didn't talk to me, but at least it can answer the question. Yeah, anyways, so people at home, I'm talking to Carrie today. I met Carrie at the AASECT conference, the American Association for Sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists. It's a mouthful.
Carrie (03:26)
Well, at least it's consistent. It shows up for you.
Mm-hmm. Association.
It's a mouthful.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:50)
But we met in San Francisco and it was cool to have you be a yes to playing some cards with me. So answering some questions with me. Do you want to give everybody like a little intro as to like who you are, what you do, where you're at, like what your specialty is? Because I do not know you that well. So
Carrie (03:59)
this.
Yeah,
absolutely. Thank you for having me on. This seemed like a really fun opportunity to kind of dip my toes into podcasting because it's something I want to do a little bit more of myself. I, my name is Carrie Ancel I'm a counselor and sex therapist. They are two different things in the state of Washington. So I'm a mental health counselor and I'm a sex therapist out of Seattle, Washington. Technically, I'm a little south of Seattle in a place called Tukwila but
if you're not from the area, you don't really know that, what I'm talking about. I work primarily with the intersection of non-monogamy, kink, neurodiversity, disability, and how all those come into play for different people, how they show up in their relationships. So I work with individuals and relationships. And I also have a non-monogamy education program where we teach classes to people on how to kind of...
get into non-monogamy in the first place, how to do all of that internal work. So if you do choose to go to a therapist, you really have a lot of the basics down. And so you can work on the more juicy things. It's called Non-Monogamy Academy. And we have our online classes. We also do speaking engagements and things like that. So non-monogamy is kind of my wheelhouse.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:22)
Go figure, people should actually prepare before they jump into that world.
Carrie (05:27)
Right? I know, like education and reading and deconstructing your mononormative scripts and really looking at where you get your messages about relationships and how you think about relationships and time and all of so many layers of things, speaking of layers. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:45)
Yeah,
I've wandered in and out of the non-monogamy world for a lot of years. And with my husband, there was a point where I said to him, like, what have you done to educate yourself? Like, you are a bull in the china shop and it is not fair to anybody who is coming across you because you are experimenting your way through this and it is leaving a trail of victims.
Carrie (06:01)
Mm-hmm.
and broken China.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:16)
Yes, and broken china. Absolutely. Yeah. And I was like, read a book, like something and he then warned me. So we started off Polly, we've slowly kept pulling it back. Like, okay, maybe an open relationship is better. We don't need to get really complex in the relationship side of it. And then even right now, we're currently monogamous. Although like nothing in my life looks monogamous. Like I have a very...
Carrie (06:30)
Mm-hmm. Ha ha
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:45)
Are you familiar with Aubri Lancaster? She's asexuality educator. She says poly-affectionate. And I'm like, yes, I identify that. So I have a very poly heart, but I practice more on the monogamy side, at least currently. But he warned me. He said, OK, so.
Carrie (06:50)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:13)
when I, if I ever think that I need to go down the polyamory road, I'm going to read this book. Like he pointed to the book on my bookshelf, which I don't think that's the one I would actually have him read. It was more than two. I would turn him into something else, but that was the one that he had heard me at some point recommend to his sister, kind of like he took notes, like a little mental note. And I said, yeah, I said, great, because it's a very thick book and I know how slow you read.
Carrie (07:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, he was paying attention.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:41)
I don't have plenty of time to prepare myself, like put the china away, you know.
Carrie (07:45)
Hmm.
Put the corners on the edges of the tables so those don't get run into.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:52)
Which might,
yeah, which might mean Michelle needs to get herself another therapist lined up so she can really start to deal with these abandonment wounds. But that's a whole nother, it's a whole nother thing.
Carrie (08:02)
Oh, I got a book for you if you're
looking at attachment theory stuff. Jessica Fern's have you read the new one, Polywise? So it takes Polysecure, which is a really lovely overview of attachment and how attachment and attachment wounds can show up in non-monogamy, and then expands it with a lot more kind of hands-on tools.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:06)
Which one? Oh, I love that book.
No. Okay.
Hmm.
Carrie (08:26)
And she does have a poly secure workbook. And I think there's also a poly wise workbook. I haven't checked that one out yet, but she does some amazing stuff with just, how do you look at your own attachment style and how does that impact how you show up not just in your romantic relationships, but with friends and with yourself? And how do you work on healing those wounds to be able to be in the kinds of relationships that you really desire to be in and show up in the ways that you want instead of showing up with fear brain being.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:33)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Oh, those hamsters are mean. They are mean in there. And that is our last to like, we went back into monogamy for a while because I was like, okay, I need a break. I work on myself a lot. And sometimes I just have to like, oh, I need a break right now. Yeah. So that's.
Carrie (08:55)
kind of ruling everything all the time.
they are.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. You can't
do all that work all the time. And you definitely can't do that work by yourself, especially if it's in a relational setting.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:22)
No.
Yep. So all the MDMA in the world hasn't quite knocked this one out yet, though it has helped me in so many other ways.
Carrie (09:31)
this one.
It's amazing how it can rewrite and override pathways in your brain to give you more access to reacting in a different way and choosing to respond instead of reacting like that automatic path of reacting that we tend to just develop through trauma.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I've gotten good at slowing everything down and in seeing when it's happening. I kind of know what's going on I just got to get my partner better trained at knowing how to like empathetically respond to that Yeah, but
Carrie (10:04)
Yeah.
And holding that loving space for you to respond differently instead of automatically thinking you're going to react in a certain way.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:12)
It's amazing
what a simple, wow, babe, that sounds really rough. I'm sorry you're having to go through that. What that could do compared to a fix it solution kind of person. And I'm like. Yeah, anyways, I can also take some responsibility and asking for what I need right when I start the conversation, but that's a whole nother that is a whole nother conversation. We are here to talk about we're not really strangers. So you're learning so much about me already.
Carrie (10:24)
Hmm.
Thanks for watching!
Dude. Where
we're le- We're already less strangers.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:43)
We're already less strangers. We're going to be so less strangers by the time this is done. I just know it. Oh, do we follow each other on Instagram? This is a question. I don't know you well enough on Instagram, probably, to be able to answer this question.
Carrie (10:53)
I think I do.
I have a personal account and a professional account. I think I follow you from my personal account. I don't really post much to either. So there is a little bit of a, I try to keep them a little bit separate. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:10)
Let's skip this question.
Yeah, let's skip this question. The question was, what does my Instagram tell you about me? But I just wouldn't, I don't have the, I don't have enough to answer that.
Carrie (11:16)
Mm.
I appreciate that you're curating the questions to be good ones.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:24)
I
am. They're not always appropriate for the situation. Oh, I already did that one in a different call. Oh, this is a good one.
Carrie (11:29)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:34)
and we'll answer this for each other. Do you think I intimidate others? Why or why not?
Carrie (11:42)
..
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:44)
And I can go first if you would like me to answer this about you.
Carrie (11:50)
I'm okay going first. Having interacted with you from a in a professional setting initially and then meeting you and chatting with you a little bit, I could see people very easily intimidated by you. You are very self-assured and you come across as very self-assured and very aware of your own wants, needs, and desires and able to advocate for them and
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:53)
Okay.
Carrie (12:19)
like elucidate on the topics that you are interested in. You're very well-spoken around, especially around things you're passionate about. And that often comes across as intimidating to people who aren't, who are struggling with self-assuredness or get intimidated by strong women or femme people. And you have a very strong presence. And that is a...
for a lot of people a very lovely and safe feeling, but for people who are looking to be intimidated, which I think there are a number of people in the world who unintentionally do that, I think that can easily fall into that category of like, oh no, they're danger, cannot approach.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:05)
Yeah, I think when I was in the dating world, I felt that a lot. In the professional world, it really helpful to just have that assurance and the other people find me assuring. And, you know, that works out really well. But I think when I was dating, this is this is how I ended up with a husband that's 12 years younger than me, is that I figured out the young ones were cocky enough.
Carrie (13:09)
Mm. That's nice.
Mm.
Yeah, that's fair.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:32)
that they
weren't intimidated. And it wasn't like, I didn't go out going, oh, I'm gonna find my husband in this age bracket. I say it was supposed to just be a good time. And it was a good time and it just kept being a good time. And eight years later, here we are. But at that age, I was like 40 and the men my own age were very much like, oh.
you're so you're a sex educator or you're aspiring to be a sex educator, that's intimidating because they make that mean that like heaven forbid they can learn something.
Carrie (14:02)
Mm-hmm.
or they have to acknowledge their own places where they're not willing to learn something or haven't paid attention and learned anything previously.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:20)
Yep. And the fact that they thought I had more sexual experience and this is like West Michigan. So very, I called the Bible belt of Michigan, very DeVos land, if you follow, you know, back in Trump politics and Betsy DeVos, like that's her stomping ground. So like, yeah. And here I was this like out kinky, you know, sex geek. I was running these sex geekdom groups at the time where we would
Carrie (14:25)
Hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:48)
I'll have conversation over dinner or whatever. And like, it was just to be a leader in the sex positive world and in like trying to date kind of in the vanilla world. Like I didn't do it for very long. Like I learned pretty quickly that online dating in general just wasn't a thing for me. But, mm-hmm. So let's flip the script here. I think you're intimidating just by your voice.
Carrie (15:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's challenging.
Oh, OK.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:19)
You have
the you also have this assuredness, but also there's like as like there's a slow tone to like how you talk that just feels very much like you're like a dom on the side or something like that. Like there's a like, you know what I mean? There's this.
Carrie (15:37)
Hahaha
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:41)
You
remind me of like my pro dom friends of like, uh-huh, like you just take control. I feel this. And because of that, the same thing that you're reading at me, that comes off as intimidating to some people.
Carrie (15:45)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely, yeah. Well, that's good.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:58)
I don't find you intimidating. And I don't think you
find me intimidating. I'm just making an assumption, but like I think in the general world, this is what happens to people with confidence.
Carrie (16:08)
Mm-hmm.
I also notice that it tends to come up when you're competent at something. And so there's kind of a self-assuredness that comes in to that. Once you know, you know what you're talking about and you know, you know what you're talking about. And so when you start speaking and people either challenge you when you can actually rebut it correctly, and they'll they're either accept that or they run away with their tail between their legs because they can't handle being challenged.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:27)
Mm-hmm.
Carrie (16:41)
or you just are able to speak with kind of a fluency and fluidity to the topic, people get impressed, but they also can get intimidated by just that amount of knowledge that you have, or by the experience that you have, going back to your statement about West Michigan and men being intimidated by your sexual adventures and knowledge. I grew up in Kansas and I had something very similar. It's also why I left Kansas.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:54)
Yeah.
Yes, I always think of what is the documentary, what is it called, like, What's Wrong with Kansas?
Carrie (17:17)
Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. I don't actually think I've seen that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:19)
It was like a, it
was a documentary, if I recall, about why people vote against their own best interest.
Carrie (17:26)
Was it the problem with Kansas or?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:28)
Maybe that was... that might be it.
Carrie (17:32)
or trouble or something? What's the matter with Kansas? It was a book? Yeah. I remember hearing about it, but I don't, I don't think I ever saw, read it. Yeah. But that is why do people vote against their best interest is a question I have for a lot of the country.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:35)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah, I never I didn't either. I just heard about it. Yeah. So
Yeah. Okay. Are you ready for the next level? Sorry, the first level, just so you know, the first level is perception. So that was about us. What our perceptions of each other are. And level two is connection. So the question is, when was the last time you surprised yourself?
Carrie (17:56)
Absolutely.
Mm, okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:10)
I have to think about this myself.
Carrie (18:12)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:13)
my brain is getting stuck on this because I'm like, well, what is surprised me?
Carrie (18:16)
Yeah, mine too, actually. What does surprise mean? Like, did I- I haven't done anything recently that I've been shocked by in my own thoughts or-
processing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:28)
Sometimes when
I'm talking, I say something that I know I can't unsay, that it's like a knowledge of myself that I can't put back in the box. Like, well, that's out of the box now. I can't ignore that thing that I just said, like a realization. So I guess I, that's where I'm getting drawn to as my answer. So I'm going to assume that is a, is a surprise. Um, if you want me to share first, I will, though I'll give you more time to think or whatever. This might inspire you to who knows.
Carrie (18:32)
Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah, that would be great. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:57)
So I don't know how many months ago, time is a weird thing. I was working with, well, back up a while back, I picked up some sessions with a coach here in San Diego who generally likes to coach people around how to tell stories. Like
I don't know if it was like for stage or what. I met him at an event one time and I decided I wanted to work on like telling my own story like on my website, just like my story is, I think important people that work with me that do really well with me tend to really be on a similar path that I've already kind of trudge through. So it's like, oh yeah, I relate to this part of Michelle's story. So I was working with him on that. And we had a great time with that. We ended up
Carrie (19:28)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:46)
working more so on creating my why statement, like why do I do this work? But then fast forward, he's working on his life coach certification. He needs to have so many hours of recorded sessions and was like, who wants to have some free time with me? And I was like, I love time with you. I've worked through so much crap talking to you. And we had to come in with what was my issue going to be that we were going to spend this, I don't know, 45 minutes or whatever.
And I'm like, God, I don't know. My life, I work shit out pretty fast. I don't walk around with questions that just linger in my mind and that I need support around. So I came up with one. I come into session, and I'm like, OK, here's the dilemma today. How do you know when it's time to work the practice you want versus the practice you have? What kind of clients? I wanted to kind of shift some of my work.
And in our conversations, so this is a dilemma I've been working through in my practice and people that listen to this podcast are going to be like, yeah Michelle, we've heard you talk about this many times. But in my personal life, I've realized that I'm on the asexual spectrum, that I don't experience sexual attraction. I'm a sex favorable asexual. But figuring this
piece out is really been an interesting retrospective back into my life of like, oh yeah, that makes sense why this and this and these other things. And some of that I think made my work as a surrogate partner easier because I'm not used to experience sexual attraction. So if I have a client and we need to go into erotic work, sexual attraction doesn't play into it for me. So a little easier. But also what I'm finding is that...
Carrie (21:24)
Thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:37)
the sexual spoons feel more limited. And some of that I think is, I'm on a medication that I think affects my pleasure centers. I think this could be a little bit of, you know, just maturity, length of time in relationship.
Carrie (21:43)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:59)
But like for me, I'm very much a responsive desire person. It just takes a lot to like get in the mood to have sex. Like I have to like tell myself, remember Michelle, you like sex. You should go cuddle with your husband and see what happens, right? Like I have to kind of pep talk myself. And so the idea of giving those spoons to my work instead of my relationship feels like a bad trade-off.
So I've been wanting to steer away from the erotic component of my work. But this was a few months back before I was really getting clarity around this. And I remember saying to him, my value is not in my sex. And then it just hit me that I'd already come to that conclusion in my personal life, but that now I needed to wrap my brain around that in my professional life.
Carrie (22:41)
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:53)
because surrogate partner therapy is so.
Carrie (22:53)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:55)
unfortunately, also known as sex surrogacy, right? Even though we don't really practice it that way anymore, the, if we call it sex surrogacy, it's kind of misleading. But so much of what people assume about my work is that it has a sexual component to it. And I presented a case very much on purpose at AASECT that did not include that component because I wanted people to start to see it in a broader perspective, but to actually,
now say my value is not in my sex. I can't unsay that. And that surprise, that bubbling out of my mouth in that moment really surprised me that I hadn't put that together in my professional life yet.
Carrie (23:40)
Hmm.
or the potential repercussions or at least ripples that would come from it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So be prepared, because Michelle's going to have to start promoting this very different shift of boundaries in my work. Yeah.
Carrie (23:59)
Kind of shift.
Mm-hmm.
I see.
My surprise is sort of a thing that didn't happen. I had a hysterectomy in August of last year after years of struggles and issues and problems and I had a tremendous amount of fear going into it and a lot of grief of, you know, I'm in my early 40s. I have not had children and that had been a...
source of grief for me. But I had a lot more acute grief going into that surgery of like I'm making this choice, this decision to completely take that off the table knowing that it wasn't a likelihood anyway because I had fertility issues but like that it just removes all options in that regard. And I came out of the surgery and I haven't felt any of that grief since it just disappeared.
I haven't felt anything but relief, in fact, of joy and I mean discomfort for sure because my body went through a pretty large surgery. But my recovery process was much less than I expected it to be. It was much easier. It's been amazing, honestly, and that surprised me. I expected difficulty and struggle and pain because I was so used to it. And
shame and guilt and grief and I'm not experiencing any of that and it's been liberating in so many ways. Yeah, yeah that was a very happy but also very unexpected surprise and I... I'm grateful for it. I'm incredibly grateful for it that I don't... I'm not struggling with those things anymore but I'm also still maybe...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:43)
What a, yeah, I say what a happy surprise. Yeah.
Carrie (26:04)
expecting something to come trickling back in or come back up. I'm hoping it doesn't, but yeah. Like what is it? Is it over there? Yep. So I'm trying not to be also hyper vigilant about it because that then can create it from nothing and just kind of accepting that this is the current experience and I'm good with that and I'm grateful for it as I said.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:09)
Like it's around the corner. Like you're still like looking for it. Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a, you can't know what you're going to feel, right? And it's smart to prepare for assuming the worst or whatever, right? But like, what a lovely relief to not actually have that.
Carrie (26:34)
No.
Mm-hmm.
And the pain, the recovery pain was a lot less. Like I think I had a few days of high, moderate to high discomfort, and then a few weeks of mild to moderate discomfort, depending on how much I did. So that even just the pain of that was so much less than I expected. It was, yeah. Yeah, they had three little incisions.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:01)
Yeah.
Was that laparoscopic? I don't know much about, yeah. I find that the gas,
yeah, the gas post surgery, laparoscopic surgery is horrible. Like that was what I did not quite understand going into it. It was like, that was the worst part for me. Yeah, yeah.
Carrie (27:15)
Mm-hmm.
I was very prepared for that discomfort, thankfully,
and it was minimal for me. I'm not sure why, but just overall, my body seemed to handle it pretty well.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:33)
You move gas well. You can put that on your resume.
Carrie (27:37)
I'm not sure even how to phrase that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:40)
I had bariatric surgery a few years back and I remember with my partner, I was like, all right, we're breaking the seal here because I had always been very, not like, there are things I will happily do in front of him. I would happily pee in front of him, though he is an absolute, no, you must shut the bathroom door at all times kind of person. And I'm like, even for pee really? He's like, Michelle, shut the door. Okay, I will honor your boundary there. Yes.
Carrie (27:42)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. Yep.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:07)
But in that moment I was like, babe, so doctor's instructions are I need to fart. If the urge is there, I'm gonna have to do it. And I had made it many, many years through our relationship and not intentionally at least farting in front of him. It's gone now.
Carrie (28:25)
I will
say GasX and laxatives are your friend when it comes to anything that where you go under for anesthesia because that can mess with your guts really badly and I was very rigorous in my taking of meds for that because yeah. Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:42)
I, um, lots of heating pads, because that
really helped move. Yeah. Heating vest. I have one of the vests. Oh.
Carrie (28:48)
I have, oh, I'm wearing one right now because I have chronic
pain. Thankfully it looks like a shawl, but I got a microwavable heat pack with millet in it and that was on my belly constantly. It was one of the most soothing things. I had a friend who recently had a hysterectomy and I sent her a gift package of things that I found useful for me and I sent her actually my heating pad.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:55)
Yeah.
Mm.
Carrie (29:17)
And a few days after I sent it, I'm like, that was a poor decision. So I just went and got myself another one. Like, nope, you can have it. You keep it. I'm not going to regret that choice, because I want to support you. And also, I need mine.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:30)
Yeah, I haven't pulled mine out, but it's been so cold in San Diego lately. I kind of feel like I want to just wear it around like on the couch and stuff. Yeah, that was a that was one that I learned about. Did you meet Phoenix Mandel when you were at AASECT? OK, yeah, Phoenix. OK, yeah, Phoenix turned me on to the heating vest thing. That was great.
Carrie (29:36)
bundle.
Yes, we've become friends.
I have a meta who, a metamore who works as a zookeeper and she gets very cold and so for Christmas last year I gave her a heated vest and heated hand warmers to help keep her so she is not a popsicle because she's outside so much of the time and yeah the only hazard is remembering to charge it because those things have a battery that runs out fairly quickly.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:08)
That's not so nice. Yeah.
Yeah, I was introduced to the regular outdoor vest. My heating vest, the heating pad vest is not sexy and I would not wear it anywhere and it's not attractive at all. But the regular vest that heat up, boy, that's a really lovely gift.
Carrie (30:22)
Mm-hmm.
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Yeah, I'm very excited about it for her.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:38)
Yeah, yeah. Did a lot of I did a lot of bonfires during COVID to get together with friends and one of my friends got one of those for Christmas and I was like, oh, I went to covit that vest. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Carrie (30:44)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
They make everything easier. Well, during the winter at least. During the winter and summer,
I imagine it would be much more difficult.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:58)
I just pulled a card but I've nope it's the card I did this morning let's try again.
I don't even know how to answer that. Curation is so important. So there's something to know about this card deck because I do not like their wild cards.
Carrie (31:07)
It is.
Hmm.
We talked about using the other deck as well. Do you want to pivot to that? Okay, sure. I feel sufficiently warmed up.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:15)
Let's do that if you're ready. I think that one sounds more fun since I was having such a struggle
Okay Yeah, normally I love um The third level, but I was just having a hard time
Carrie (31:28)
What is the third level?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:31)
It is reflection.
Carrie (31:35)
Reflections good. I do enjoy reflection.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:37)
I used,
I think I used mainly level three cards. I might be forgetting. I feel like it was level three cards that I used for my wedding reception. I put these cards at all the tables. Many people, many people cried at my wedding. I was thrilled, yes. I'm like, aww, yeah. And I have like.
Carrie (31:49)
That's a great conversation starter.
Oh, because of the cards? Yeah, that's a lot of authenticity that they're offering you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:04)
Some of us to say that the people that I surround myself with are really like, lovely and willing to jump into this kind of conversation. Like it's not something that they shy away from. And in fact, they were oversharing. It was like, the card would say, is there a feeling that you miss feeling? And they would read it as what feeling do you miss feeling? And they would expound on that. And then everybody ended up in tears. So.
Yeah, it's okay. We like that.
Carrie (32:33)
Sometimes you go
a little too deep when you don't mean to, conversationally, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:38)
I
joke that it would have been just so me to have like a therapist at the wedding set up to like help people process.
Carrie (32:46)
I'm so sorry.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:48)
I wanted it to be me. That was my part of the whole like I didn't do any planning for my wedding. It was all my husband and a wedding planner. And it was like the one space I thought I could put my kind of stamp on. And so here's a good one. What are you most attracted to that isn't physical?
Carrie (32:59)
Hmm.
isn't physical.
Oh, that one's actually really easy. Sense of humor. Especially when it comes to word play, puns, dad jokes, that just makes my brain go brr. Cause I love Woody banter with people. That really makes my brain fire. And I've had people who physically I'm not particularly attracted to them, but we start bantering and...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:18)
Yeah.
Carrie (33:44)
it really heats up and I've ended up in relationships with those people and that desire, that attraction has developed and I've found it to be actually be stronger than just initial physical attraction. So yeah, definitely sense of humor.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:59)
Well, we know I don't have sexual attraction.
Carrie (34:03)
Yes, I mean, there's aesthetic attraction as well.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:04)
So.
Oh yeah, I was just about to go into all the different kinds of attraction there are. So when they say like physical, what are you most attracted to that isn't physical? I guess that's very like what it... Okay, I was reading that as like physical attractiveness, but they're saying what is... Because I, you know, there's aesthetic attractions and intellectual attraction. I have a high level of like sensual attraction, like where I look at someone, I go, oh, what would it be like to be close to you and in your arms and cuddling? And you're like, that's where my brain goes to.
Carrie (34:10)
Yeah.
That's right.
Hmm.
Is this?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:37)
I'm clearly in the right business. So I'm going to give a very specific example, and I hope that Brandon listens to this episode at some point. Brandon Hunter Haydon who co-presented with me and Brian at AASECT So frame of reference for you, Carrie. I met Brandon, oh gosh, a long time ago, he was who I would consider the stalker guy on my Instagram because he would like all my stuff, but I didn't know who he was.
Carrie (34:39)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:05)
And then one day he reached out and was like, hey, could I pay you for your time? I would like to learn more about your work as a surrogate partner. And I was like, you want to pay me to talk to you and you're offering up money? That's amazing. I love this. I feel so respected. And so we got on a call and come to find out he's not a weirdo. Like he was a clinician in Chicago who was thinking about getting into surrogate partner therapy work.
I was like, oh, you're just a normal person and not some stalker. This is fantastic. Well, we bring him into the fold. He participates in all the groups and stuff that we do around surrogate partner therapy. And one day we get in a really big conversation or something around sex work. And I listened to this man just wax poetically about the topics around social justice and sex work and decrim and all this stuff.
And I just instantly went like this, all of a sudden I had such a crush on him. Like it just flipped hardcore. And I was like, I'm never going to look at him the same again. Like just, I just, his brain just, the way he talks about it. So yeah, that would be my, my specific, like I'm attracted to that intellectual component, especially around topics that are really near and dear to my heart. Like if you can
speak eloquently and passionately and like with this awareness I'm just like swoon. So swoon worthy. So Brandon Hunter Haydon you are my swoon worthy person of the day.
Carrie (36:35)
Mm-hmm.
Brandon and I have also gotten to be friends and yeah, he's got good brain.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:46)
He's got such a good brain. Yeah. I love that you know all the same people. That makes me very familiar feeling with you.
Carrie (36:55)
I met all of these people. Well, I knew some of the people from the Seattle area or the Washington area prior to going to AASECT, but I'm an ambivert and I'm really good at turning it on when I'm in a social context like that. And the joke I tell people, I am insatiably curious. I want to know, that's part of why I became a therapist, mine snoozing near me and was also growling earlier.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:19)
My dog is growling. Yeah,
it's not like a growl, growl. It's a I'm trying not to bark, but I really want you to pay attention to me. Come here, buddy. Yeah, OK. This is Dax. Yes, he's very cute. Pekingese mix, probably Pekingese and Chihuahuas, my guess. But he's an old man. He's going blind. So we give him all the love. OK.
Carrie (37:28)
Hello, pay attention to me please. I would like one order of attentions. It's very cute. Pekingese? Ah.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
So,
yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:49)
Um, it's hard with headphones and all the things.
Carrie (37:53)
I understand that, it's actually why I got cordless ones, because I just kept getting caught on things with them, and I couldn't deal with it anymore.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:03)
I do have some too, but they've given me trouble on these occasionally. If I'm not thinking and I have an alarm that's going to go off on my phone, it somehow cuts the blue. And then I can't get it back on here. I have to literally go out and come back in. I'm like, that doesn't work. That screws up a pocket.
Carrie (38:07)
Mm-hmm.
Oh, yeah.
It overtakes the signal. Yeah.
No, these are wired
as dependable.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:31)
Yeah. I think I already did that one.
I don't know if you wanted to do a question like that. I'm gonna pass on it just in case. God, I don't wanna do that either. It's like, I'm totally comfortable talking about sex, but like in this kind of like, almost locker room version of it, it doesn't work for me.
Carrie (38:38)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:56)
This kind of plays off the last one. The best way to get me into bed is.
Carrie (39:01)
make me laugh. Not at you though, cause that I don't like self-deprecating humor. That's actually a huge turn off. A little bit of mild like, haha, you know, this is why I did, I like, I screwed something up and here's how I, what I learned from it. And that kind of humor is okay, but so like, I'm the worst or this is why I'm not worthy of your time or things like that. I just, that doesn't.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:03)
Yep.
with you. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Carrie (39:31)
resonate with me, but making me actually laugh or making my brain light up from humor and puns back and forth as I was saying, that is a huge attraction thing for me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:45)
Do you know Yoni Alkin? Okay, puns are his game, so just be forewarned. Yes. For me, it'd be like, it's a multi-step plan. But first, like, be my friend. Like, I have to actually really like you as a person and, like, consider you a friend. And then, it's like...
Carrie (39:47)
Yes, I met him at, uh, at ASECT.
Good to know.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:13)
get me curious to what your touch would feel like. Right? Like, Brian Gibney and I tell a story about the first time I met him. It was to help me. I had my first surrogate partner client. I was like, I don't know what to do. I just I'm so panicked. I did. I don't have a lot of great things to say about the training that I had. Anyways, so he was three hours away from me and I drove down to visit him so he could take me through Sensate Focus.
from a place of like, I wanted to know what the baseline should feel like because I'd only ever done like some video instruction around it. And I was like, but how do I know what feels like? I want to know what it could feel like, right? At the best case scenario. Brian Gibney's touch is just so freaking delightful. Like he, I joked that him touching my hand was like, we had sex. And I was like, I couldn't help but be curious. We have a vow that we're never going there. But...
Carrie (40:43)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:15)
I regularly say like, hey, do you want to have sex in the coffee shop? Do you just want to like hold my hand and like touch it? Because it's so intimate with him. He's such like you get good with touch, like touching someone's hand, and I imagine they would just let you into all sorts of places, because that's where my brain goes. It's like, ooh, you're good at this.
Carrie (41:19)
I have hands. I love that. Yeah. That's good.
Mm-hmm. Let's...
I think there's also a level of comfort and safety that comes across when somebody is very intentional about their touch in a non-predatory way. You know, where they... It's touch for comfort and connection, but it has so many more messages under that of, like, you can trust me. I am here. I am present. I am with you in this.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:52)
Mm-hmm.
Carrie (42:05)
And that just creates a level of intimacy, as you were saying, that it's akin to having sex, not exactly the same thing, obviously, but you kind of feel that, like, oh, wow, oh, wow, just from touching hands. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm
hmm. Yeah. And we can I say we but I know for myself, you can also feel that energy of when somebody is touching you and it's from that place that it feels very different than someone who's touching you trying to get you to something.
Carrie (42:38)
or for their own pleasure. And that's not to say that somebody touching you for their own pleasure is bad or wrong, but there's a kind of a level of give to it that is, I think, very lovely to receive from somebody who is very intentional about touch like that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:57)
On the other side of that, Brian's touch was probably from the take space of the Wheel of Consent or in Sensate focus, touching for his own pleasure. And I think that is really incredibly hot too, but it's because it's all conscious, right? We know exactly what's happening and that's, it's not a mystery.
Carrie (43:05)
Mm-hmm.
Pleasure.
This is.
I do love the Wheel of Consent. That's one of the trainings I actually want to do. And I know that that's good to know actually.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:24)
It's my favorite training.
It's the best, I think it was the best money I've ever spent on any trainings. I love that training. And when I took it in Seattle, there were therapists there. So yeah.
Carrie (43:40)
One of my supervisors
took it when it was offered last September here. And yeah, it was, we've talked about it since, and she talks about how she incorporates it into her work regularly.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:56)
Yeah, Brandon was at that training. Oh, fantastic. I was talking to another therapist that was at that training. And I was like, Oh, Brandon's there. And she's like, yeah, I'll tell them you said hi. I'm like, okay. No, I'm the stalker. Anyways. Okay.
Carrie (43:58)
Mm-hmm. We grab dinner.
I'm sorry.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:14)
This is, I guess, generally a group card game, so some of these just really don't work.
Carrie (44:20)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:20)
I kind of want to modify a card. I'm going to do that to the card reads. What's the most embarrassing thing you've done in the bedroom while intoxicated? But I want to take off the while intoxicated and just say, what's the most embarrassing thing you've done in the bedroom? If you're you could pass. So this is like this is like, OK, great.
Carrie (44:38)
Oh no, I've got one. Oh, this is good.
When I was a teenager, late teens or the 20s actually, I think, I can't remember exactly how old I was. My childhood bedroom though, I was visiting my mom and I had heard all of these amazing things about satin sheets. Satin sheets were wonderful, so they were great. And so I got a set for my bed and...
Key information, my bedroom is on the second floor of the house. And so my partner at the time and I were having sex and windows were open, it was hot, it was summer in Kansas City and we didn't take into account how slippery satin is so he didn't have a hold on me.
we were really getting into it and suddenly I went flying off the bed and almost through the window. The only thing that stopped me from exiting the second floor of the house was the screen. And so I thankfully didn't get injured particularly well because the window and the bed were about the same level, so hence not hitting the wall.
But yeah, that was pretty embarrassing. And also I learned how to re-screen a window screen because I damaged it to the point where it had to be fixed. So I know how to use a splining tool in Spline now and I've done, I've fixed many windows since and I don't use satin sheets anymore either.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:14)
I don't think I've ever used satin sheets. Okay. I don't, I've considered them for my hair, yeah.
Carrie (46:17)
Do not recommend! For your hair, satin pillowcases can be great for your hair. Yeah.
Don't put them on the bed itself.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:27)
Okay, I like to have a little traction. I don't think I need satin sheets.
Okay, so yeah, I can imagine that was a little embarrassing. Mine is so embarrassing. I swore at the time we were never gonna talk about it, but I've talked about it many times since then. So I've clearly like gotten over it. Different partner. He was really, really like gung ho for anal sex. And I was like, yeah, I don't mind anal sex, but with this.
Carrie (46:41)
Move. Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:59)
relationship we just hadn't gone there yet. And I don't think he'd ever had anal sex before. He was another one of these young pups I picked up at one point. And you know, I love giving first experiences. So I was like, Oh, of course I want to be your first. But it was one of those days where I said, Yeah, I don't think today's the day to do this. Like, that's one of those things that you got to learn your body. And you're like, Yep, today is not an anal sex day. I can just tell this is not going to go well. But he was very excited and very like persistent.
And I said, if we do this and it does not go well, and by well, I mean, if we make a mess, we are never talking about this ever, ever. He agreed. We proceeded. I was right. Should have not done it. It was a mess. And
Carrie (47:49)
Hmm.
Hmm?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:56)
and I'm talking about it today. So there you go. Don't play in that area if you're afraid to get messy, but also trust yourself when you say, today is not a good day.
Carrie (47:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-mm.
Well, just, like, listen to the other person and not your own desire. Cause, mm, yeah. That sounds like somebody who was not used to respecting other people's boundaries.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:15)
Yes.
In retrospect, I also wasn't very good at enforcing them. This was before I got into cuddling. This was way back in the day. I learned a lot about boundaries through that work.
Carrie (48:27)
Thanks for watching!
Oh, you learned a lot about boundaries then. Yeah.
That's me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:42)
So yeah, it was not Michelle 1.0, but it was definitely deep into Michelle 2.0 and I'm probably gotta be at five or something at this point, right? So like, it was pre-work. And so there's a whole nother layer of like, oh yeah, nowadays I wouldn't have given into that. Like my whole thing now is really about trusting my gut and following that and be damned anyone else. And...
Carrie (48:59)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:10)
like trying not to self abandon and which is part of my moving my boundaries and my work is to say like, yeah, maybe I should keep that part of my, that part of my life, since it's so, a difficult to come by the desire aspect but also because I have a history of coercion around sex becomes very difficult to make those decisions on.
Carrie (49:12)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:39)
going into that part of the work with a client or not, because that question of like, do I want this? Or we say compassionate willingness a lot in that work, but where's the line between those things and doing it because you're supposed to, right? And so I'm not very good at differentiating that just because of my history. So getting me out of that space is probably for the best, for me.
Carrie (49:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That makes so much sense, yeah. And just knowing the places where it can get murky.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:11)
Yeah, and so much of...
Yeah, and I don't want to be burned out and I want to take good care of myself. And also the best parts of the work, the most powerful parts of the work are not that. I know that's very powerful for some people and they really need that and I'm probably just not going to be the right person for them or we refer that part of the work out to like, I have a
that has a lot of the same trainings as me. So there's a continuity of language. So like, if we're working in the wheel of consent, this sex worker will pick up in that same language and understand that part of the work. So it's like, almost like tagging, tagging out or something like that. That's my idea of potentially options around this for people that really do need that component. But I also think a lot of people don't. Yeah.
Carrie (51:07)
That sounds like a great idea.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:10)
I also think a lot of people don't need that component. And so I found so much satisfaction in working with, this year, this last year, it's been a lot of like older women with sexual assault backgrounds and mother wounds on top of it. Like you combine all those things together and I'm like, I'm in my sweet spot. This is where all of like the best parts of my work come together.
And it's been really, really satisfying. So if I can kind of move the universe into sending me more of that demographic, it's really where I'd prefer to be. So.
Carrie (51:51)
There's not enough people doing that kind of work either, especially taking into account the impact of perimenopause or menopause. I've been reading a book that a friend recommended called What Fresh Hell Is This? Yeah, and there's just so little research around those topics and the impact on sexuality, but also just the impact on your mental health. I know so many women who...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:05)
I read that one recently. Yeah.
Carrie (52:19)
discovered that they had ADHD when they were older, after their hormones shifted, because their bodies were compensating in different ways and they lost coping skills, and suddenly their ability to focus just went out the window and they're like, but I've been able to do this for ages, what's different? And their bodies are different. And yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:40)
I feel that I don't
have a diagnosis, but I bet you I can probably get one. One of those things where if I run out of those coping mechanisms, maybe I'll have to. But yeah, I really, that was one of those times in life where I'm like, okay, where are who, which part, like one of the sex geeks, some of the sex geeks have had to have like jumped into the menopause world by this point. Right. And, and the author of that book.
Carrie (52:45)
It's amazing how many people do.
Thanks for watching!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:10)
has a Facebook group. I don't know if you know about that, but I can get you in if you'd like. But yeah, it's not super active, but if you ever needed a place to pop a question or something, like I know I'm having hot flashes once in a while at this point. You got put through the medical like fast track version of having to deal with some of this.
Carrie (53:12)
Mm-mm. I didn't. Should that be great?
I,
yes and no, I do still have my ovaries, so I'm not on, I'm not going through menopause yet, but it is likely that I would go through early menopause because of the surgery. So I'm just preparing and gathering info and monitoring my own hormone levels. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:38)
Oh, okay.
Gotcha. Yeah.
Yeah, that was it was a
really great book. And I'm like, OK, I will be coming back to this as more things pop onto my radar kind of thing. Like it's going to become I have it on Audible, but I'll probably should just buy the actual book so I can start to like make notes. And yeah, exactly. Because right now it's like it's like some hot flashes. I'm on an I have an IUD, the Marina, so I don't have regular periods. But once in a while, I get just some
Carrie (53:58)
Mm-hmm.
I slipped there. What page was that on? Yeah. Hehehe.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:22)
spotting and so I'm keeping I'm starting to keep track of the spotting because I'm like when you're on stuff like that how do you keep track of what your cycle is doing because it's not regular yeah so um so yay today was like uh day 63 and I started spotting today so
Carrie (54:31)
It's very difficult. Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:43)
Why? Okay, I don't know.
It's a strange world. I'm with my mom being gone. I think she was definitely... I'm 48. My mom was diagnosed with cancer at 48. I know she was already on hormone replacement. So I know she started before I did. But I don't have that person to go back and ask questions to and that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Carrie (55:06)
or her medical records to go back and look at because they're so hard to
access. Yeah, the ability to have those conversations is a gift. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I was too young to know what I would have liked to have sat down and like made notes about, right?
Carrie (55:22)
Yeah, how could you at that age? There's no way to know that those are things that are or will be one day important. Or even little things. I gifted my mother a thing called Story Worth a few years ago, where you go through and you curate questions for them and they write it and you get a book at the end. And...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:32)
Yeah.
Carrie (55:47)
not only just the questions that we asked each week, but it led to so many other conversations where I learned things about my mom I never knew I wanted to know. And I've been suggesting this to people in my life since then because I think it's a way to learn so much about people. But I also very much recognize the gift of time that I have with her.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Carrie (56:16)
I know many of my friends don't and it's so hard to recognize and feel that gratitude and also understand that grief.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:29)
Yeah, yeah, if I had been more emotionally mature at that time in my life, I would have totally. Yeah, yeah, but she wasn't either. I was having this like, are we going to have this Tuesdays with Maury moment? You know, like these come to Jesus talks and none of that. She was not, she was not emotionally mature either. So it just.
Carrie (56:36)
You were in your mid-20s? Like, you were...
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:52)
The deepest conversation we had was like John Edwards, who's a psychic medium was very popular at the time And she would watch it every afternoon And so the one talk that I can say we really had was how are you gonna come back when you come back, right? Yeah, and it was she was gonna turn on the ceiling fan and they shit you not seven years later It finally happened and I was like, okay, I see you This wild but you know, anyhow on that note
Carrie (57:04)
Are you going to let me know you're here? Yeah.
Well...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:21)
Cari, it was a pleasure.
Carrie (57:22)
Indeed. Thank you for having me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:25)
I do feel like I'm more connected to you now.
Carrie (57:27)
Mm-hmm. Same.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:30)
Yeah, circle back. I don't know if I plan to see you at AASECT this year if you'll travel to St. Louis or not, but maybe. Yeah, I have complex feelings about it, but. Yeah.
Carrie (57:38)
Trying to figure that one out. Yeah.
same. As somebody
who grew up in that part of the country, I definitely have complex feelings about the queer coding that I exist within now and the people I know who are also thinking about attending and safety questions.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:03)
Yep. Safety questions and is this the state that I want to spend my money in? Right. Like voting with our dollars and. Yeah, so. But. Brian reminded me that we're coming off of the last conference with so much momentum that it's kind of important for our industry that we're there, and so I will be there, but it is not without consideration and lots of.
Carrie (58:09)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:33)
feelings. Yeah, so well, we'll run into each other when we run into each other and thanks for joining me. Oh, where can people find you? I should probably do that a little bit.
Carrie (58:34)
internal conflict. Yeah.
Absolutely.
My therapy practice is called branching out well-being and my non-monogamy education program is nonm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:57)
Perfect, we'll put it in the show notes. Thanks for being here and we'll have you back. Maybe like we'll do like, I don't know, maybe once in a while I'll throw like an anniversary, like, oh, it's been a year since you've been on the show. Come back and answer questions. Now, if you ever have anything to promote, hit me up and I'll bring you back for anything specific. So thanks for being here, we'll see you again soon.
Carrie (58:59)
Excellent. Thank you.
I'm not sure. I'd adopt that.
Excellent. Thank you.
