Darren Cyrus
In this engaging conversation, Michelle Renee and Darren Cyrus explore the intricate world of intimacy, touch work, and sexual healing. They discuss the nuances of navigating boundaries in touch therapy, the importance of consent, and the differences between sexual healing touch and sexological bodywork. Through personal anecdotes and reflections, they highlight the significance of comfort, vulnerability, and the shared experiences of touching different bodies. The dialogue also touches on the role of pausing and listening in intimate connections, as well as the social aspects of sharing food and experiences. Ultimately, they reflect on life transitions and the realization of one's own limitations. They discuss body image, vulnerability, and the journey of self-acceptance, particularly in the context of nudity and intimacy. The conversation also explores the supportive community of intimacy professionals and the exploration of sexuality within relationships, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and self-discovery. In this conversation, Michelle and Darren delve into the complexities of trust, relationship dynamics, and the spectrum of sexual attraction. They explore the nuances of monogamy and polyamory, discussing how open communication and consent shape their relationships. The discussion also touches on the role of kink and BDSM in personal healing and the importance of curiosity in exploring one's sexuality. Ultimately, they emphasize the significance of integrating these experiences into their professional lives, fostering a deeper understanding of intimacy and connection.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) is a Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Sexological Bodyworker, and owner of Bear Soul Wellness in Old Town Manassas, Virginia. Learn more at https://BearSoulWellness.com. He can be found on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/bearsoulwellness and https://www.instagram.com/the_darren_experience
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Human Connection Coach and Cuddle Therapist. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectioncoach.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question, for Michelle to answer on an episode, https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/podcast
Links from today's show:
A video of the walk down to Black’s Beach in San Diego: https://youtu.be/vXrKvKG41hM?si=jNPTMJwVJnVGZnUX
Spending Time Naked With Strangers Can Improve Body Image by Justin J. Lehmiller Ph.D.: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-myths-of-sex/202102/spending-time-naked-with-strangers-can-improve-body-image
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:48)
Welcome back to the intimacy lab. I get to be joined today by a colleague on the East coast named Darren Cyrus, who this is our first time having like a one-on-one together. We've known each other for a little while now because Darren is part of the East coast intimacy professionals group that I co-lead with Brian Gibney. It's like a peer to peer support for people that are in intimacy as professionals, like talk therapists, touch people.
educators and Darren happens to be one of the touch people. So Darren, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to us?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (02:26)
Michelle, thank you very much. Yeah, it's great to be here with you. We get to have a little time together and get to know each other a little bit better. My name is Darren Cyrus. I am a licensed massage therapist in the state of Virginia. I am also a sexological body worker and somatic sex educator in training. Yeah, I should be complete with the certification later this year.
Yeah, I'm currently like exploring the overlap of those two worlds, right? And yeah, I'm located in Virginia, just west of Washington, DC. And yeah, Virginia has some unique laws governing massage therapy that could, yeah, make a like a clear path to be able to do sex bod work as an integrated part of my practice.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:20)
love that. And you're the first person that's really talked about the delicacies of these laws, especially since you're in a licensed profession, I'm not in a licensed profession. So I get to make up my own rules as I go along. I mean, I mean, laws be damned, whatever. Take this, you know, soccer mom looking person to court, I guess, I don't know. I have I have a lot of privilege in that. And I recognize that.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (03:37)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:51)
But I love the work of touch and sexual healing. And I love that what I'm finding for myself as I changed my boundaries around a little bit around my work is how much, where is the line between sex and healing touch and how?
far up to that line do I really want to get? Like, where's my sweet spot where I love what I'm doing? And it's still really, really impactful for the client. So.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (04:32)
Yeah.
Hmm. Yeah, I have a thought on that. Yeah. Kind of like that transition between sex and healing touch for me is, yeah. If I am inserting my own like desires, then that is like a sexual exchange between people. But if it's purely like one directional for the client's benefit.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:35)
Yes, please, sure.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (05:01)
than that for me falls under sexual healing touch.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:06)
Yeah, and I'm starting to, so before we jump into the we're not really strangers cards, we'll have this little conversation here because I think this is where.
This is where my own journey meets my work journey. And because surrogate partner therapy traditionally is very two-way touch, especially if it includes erotic touch, it's very relational touch. That's where I'm starting to feel less yes. So I don't do a lot of erotic contacts with
It doesn't happen very often. But I had a client in town this last week where we did do one way genital touch. And it felt, I felt really a yes in that space. So it's like I'm slowly kind of well, if I don't want to go all the way to this direction, where can I still find my yes? And in that, it's different than my understanding of
sex bod or sexological body workers, somatic sex education in that, and you can correct me, maybe people are doing it differently. But I was naked with the client. I did use my body as a way to show anatomy and to show the differences in our bodies, even though we're both, you know, assigned female at birth.
we all look different, right? And I get to use my body in a way to normalize and to give kind of this tour guide kind of service, but it's not from a place of engaging with the client. It's just being in it with the client, right? And so I have that Betty Dodson background. I don't know if you're familiar with her. Nope, nope.
the audience might not be either. So Betty Dodson was this old, badass woman that I met when she was like 85 years old and she was still doing masturbation workshops in her Manhattan apartment. And it was like a two day workshop. I went back in 2014 and you, everybody was naked. It was women only, everybody's naked. It's about a dozen people. And part of that workshop was to sit naked with each other and each person would get a tour through their genitals.
Betty would sit down with you with a mirror and a light, and everybody would sit around and watch. And we get to see a dozen different vulvas and how every one of them is different. There's no standard. And we always think that we're different because if we're watching a lot of porn or what have you, there tends to be kind of a standard thanks to labiaplasty and bullshit like that. Right? So being able to, this wasn't a group event.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (07:48)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:04)
and not a lot of people are ready to jump into a group of a dozen ladies. I call it like graduate level jumping off the cliff kind of work. But this woman was definitely ready for like a one on one version of that. And so we got to I got to be in it with her, but not engaging in sexual activity.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (08:26)
Yeah, so like the difference between that experience and sex bod is that in sex bod the practitioner is always clothed, right? Yeah, so I mean it brings up something, yeah, an interesting scenario. So me being male body, yeah, I wouldn't have even the capacity
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:38)
That was my understanding.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (08:54)
to teach a female body client about their body in that way, like in relation to my body. So I think in the experience that you described, there's like a coming together of people and saying, okay, like I'm normal. Like there's, you know, all these, you know, all these different vulvas and they all look different and we're all normal.
pardon me, the work of sex bod is counter normative. So it's like, it doesn't matter what the norm is. We're going to dive into where you are in this exact moment, right? So yeah, in that way, it is more singular. Yeah, just kind of like one-on-one. And it's like, well,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:40)
Mm-hmm.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (09:53)
my body doesn't matter in this scenario. Like what are you sensing? What are you experiencing? What's coming up for you? So yeah, it's like a real focus on the client and like norm just kind of goes out the window. Yeah. And there's a lot of value in seeing yourself up against other people and being like, Oh, I'm
You know, I'm not like weird or outside the norm, but yeah, the work of Sex Bod is counter normative. So we don't even think about anybody else in the work. It's just like, where are you and what are you experiencing?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:32)
Yeah, I believe that is a lot of the surrogate partner side of the work of like, I'm not going to fix what like if people come in, they're like, they think that I have a magic wand to fix their erectile dysfunction or whatever, right? I'm like, No, I'm just here to help you work with what you got. Right?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (10:49)
Yeah,
yeah, I mean especially you know with ED and coming from you it's like Instead of like oh, we're going to try to have you Maintain interaction so you can sustain PIV intercourse for two minutes and then have an ejaculation which is like the norm, right? Exactly instead of that it's like What that soft-ass dick do like bring it over here?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:10)
Okay, checkbox, we hit all the checkboxes, yes.
Yeah,
it's fun. It's cute. I got to relive that I don't so I have the soft cock week and I know you're familiar with that. I was at a coffee date with somebody who was curious about becoming a professional cuddler the other day. And I got to talk about all the different things that I do. And I was talking about soft cock week and we got to just kind of like, love on soft cocks from the coffee shop. Like we both just sat and chatted about how cute they are. And like they're
the softness, the velvetyness of them, and just kind of ooze about how cute they are. Like, who gets to do that on a regular basis? I just imagine people were like eavesdropping on our conversation and being like, what the fuck are these people chatting about?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (11:50)
Mm-mm.
Well, yeah, that's incredible. If I can share a little bit, as I'm working through my sex bod curriculum, I had the opportunity to work hands-on with a penis for the first time a couple of weeks ago. And yeah, it was a really incredible experience. In some ways, I kind of felt...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:08)
Yes!
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (12:31)
kind of flail-y, like I am Cishet, so I have not had, I've not taken the opportunity to goof around with any dicks in my life. But yeah, just feeling how, you know, it's so much different than a vulva, but so much personality, yeah, a certain power to it also.
Um, yeah, and just like a lot of fun to goof around with.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:04)
Yeah, we take it all so seriously. Like I remember my girlfriend Sara she taught me how to do sounding. Are you familiar with sounding? Okay, so for the people at home, hold yourself close, because I might blow your mind in it for a second, or you'll be like, oh, that's nothing. Some people like to have their urethra stretched. And so this can be for vulvas and penises, but
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (13:08)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Hehehehehehe
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:34)
I've only done it with penises. You stick a silicone or metal rod into the shaft of your penis down through the urethra and it does this stretching thing. Some people find it incredibly pleasurable. And so I was learning how to do that. I said to my partner, I said, babe, I have an idea. And he's usually like, oh yes, sign me up. And I'm like, you might want to wait a second before you consent to this one.
I love prostate play and Sara had opened my eyes to the fact that in sounding you're playing with the prostate from the top instead of coming in through the anus. And I was like, Oh, tell me more. This is like another, another route for me. And so I said to my partner, I said, Hey, I have this idea. And he was like, yes, yes. And I was like, just a minute because I want to shove a rod in your penis. And he was like,
Hmm. And I go, Sara's going to teach us. And he goes, oh, well, that sounds fun. Like, like having Sara involved was the was the push for the yes. And at that time, she used her partner to teach us on. And there was a point where she said, Paul, like, feel right here. You can feel it like in his testicles. You can feel the rod coming down and not in the like right at the everything meets. And and he did. And he goes.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (14:52)
You have the bass here.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:56)
this is the first penis I've ever touched that wasn't mine. Like there was that moment of like, huh, interesting. This is fascinating, you know? It's a thing to kind of have your first experience and see what happens on the other side. So I'm glad that you found it to be fun.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (15:09)
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, like, you know, in some ways, I mean, it's just like another body part. Being a massage therapist, like I touch bodies all day, like every day. And, you know, the sex bod work is an extension of that. It's like hands-on, hands-in, genital massage, but it's always like a part of...
like a more expansive massage, it's not just diving straight in. So yeah, in some ways it was just like, oh, like I was massaging this person's back. Now I'm massaging their pain. Like, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:47)
Yeah,
we have the same parts, they're just organized differently.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (15:52)
Exactly. There's a comedian, Tiffany Haddish, she did an interview on a morning show and I don't know how it came up but there's clips on the internet you can find and she basically tells one of the hosts that male body and she was just like your coochie fell out.
Right? It's like the Nutsack is the, it wasn't all atomically correct. Like the Nutsack is the uterus and balls is the ovaries. Like, I mean, it's really, really funny the way she put it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:18)
Yeah.
But
I love the occasional on social media, that the post will go around where it shows how we changed in utero. And like, I just find it so, I'm like, see, see it's all the same people. Like, yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (16:42)
Yeah, it is.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like, being informed with vulvas kind of helped me because I mean, there's like a frenulum on the clitoris and there's a frenulum on the penis and that's kind of like the hot spot. So when arousal comes up, you know, you might want to just play with that and not like dive straight in. So yeah, just like a lot of stuff that is like the same tissue is just different scale and configuration.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:09)
Yep.
Yeah. Oh, and where we're normalized, like I I'm primarily with men that I mean, I'm bisexual, but I'm not with a lot of vulvas very often. So my comfort level around penises way higher than vulvas. But I know how mine works. I know what I like. I also the translation between penises and vulvas. Yes, it's the same kind of like, okay.
If we slow this down, right? Slow it down. We can all communicate and figure out what feels good.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (17:47)
Exactly, yeah, I love that. Yeah, my own experience with my own penis kinda like came in, because at some points I kinda felt like I was like flailing and I mean there were like strokes and techniques that I've learned through the course but putting it into action. And yeah, I was just like, well, what does my penis like? And then just try to come to things and it was successful. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:08)
Okay?
That's awesome. I love that story because we all start somewhere, right? And I know for this client that was coming into town, there was a part of me, I have an OMG subscription that I haven't started to go through yet. OMG Yes is a really cool website that teaches you how to touch vulvas. And
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (18:15)
Yes. Thank you.
Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's, it's, it put me up on game as they say. Yeah, it will.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:40)
Okay, okay, you're
gonna inspire me, Darren, to get on this. But I had some time over winter break in between Christmas and New Year's. And I really considered prepping for this client because I wasn't sure where exactly we were gonna go in the work during our couple of days together. And I really considered doing a crash course at OMG YES just to make my confidence feel better. But...
And then I was like, no, there were some other things I preferred to do. And it worked out fine, because we didn't really get into as much erotic touch as I thought we possibly could, but we move at everyone's own pace, right? And where myself, the client, the therapist thinks they might be able to go in our time together isn't always what shows up in the space, right? Because you don't know what you don't know.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (19:37)
Exactly. Yeah. And like having a plan is good, but listening and staying connected and kind of being in the flow is much, is much better.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:52)
I think it's like keeping your toolbox stocked so that when you're in that space, you're like, oh, this sounds like something for this exercise or this sounds like something for this. And so, yeah, that's totally what happens.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (19:56)
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:10)
Okay. Um, all right. We're going to jump into the, we're not really strangers.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (20:17)
Okay. Yes. That's a little nerves like, um, yeah, sometimes I do take a bit of a pause to kind of feel what's coming up instead of thinking it to death. And if my pause is too long, you can just kind of like prod me a little bit.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:18)
Okay. Ah, stretch.
I'm sorry.
Here's the beauty
of this. There's this great little tool on Riverside where it lets me magically erase all the blanks.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (20:52)
Oh, wow.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:53)
It just like
goes in and like squeezes everything together. So the people at home will never know how long we took to consider our answers. But I think it's important that we share that we do consider our answers because shooting from the hip is not nearly as thoughtful. Right. It's like. It's like if we really want to be vulnerable, this is what everybody comes here for.
Maybe they don't want to, but they want to stretch themselves. We have to pause. Even though I don't run in the tantra world, when I was at a pro...
gosh, a few years ago, which is like, Wheel of consent for touch workers. They would say, take the sacred pause, right? And it's like, yeah, the sacred pause. Sounds a little woo woo, but it is important to take that pause and really check in with yourself. Cuddle party, we do an exercise in there. And we talk about like, you can really feel whether you're a yes or a no.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (21:42)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:02)
by taking that pause and checking in with your body. For most people, and if you can't, then we got stuff to work on, right? It just kind of informs where we're gonna start our work when I do that with new clients. Because some people can't.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (22:05)
Absolutely.
Mmm.
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah, and the way to get to that place is by taking that pause. And once, I mean, I'll speak for myself. Like once I did it enough, and even like if I had an answer ready, like on my tongue, I would still pause and just like wait, say, okay, I have an answer, but let me.
just wait and see if any other information comes up. So now I've gotten to the point, like when I, if I ask like a question or someone asks a question and I pause, like I know like where in my body the answer will come from, but also sometimes like I know, like there'll almost sometimes be a voice too, like a clear yes or no.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:06)
Mm-hmm.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (23:15)
So like, if someone asks me a question and I pause, sometimes I'll hear the clear yes and no. If I don't hear the clear yes and no, then I'll pause, deepen breath a little bit more, and then wait for the answer to bubble up from my body. And then if that doesn't happen, then I'll use the best information that I have and I'll make a cognitive decision.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:42)
I love that. I have a people-pleasing background. I'm a recovering codependent. And for me, it's this immediate urge to say yes, to request or invitations or like, example, my Michigan wife, my bestie up in Michigan, I was supposed to see her for a couple of days over Christmas.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (23:46)
Mmmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:08)
And she calls me the day after Christmas and she says, no, she calls me on Christmas day because we're supposed to meet each other day after Christmas. She says, oh, my son is coming home from his dad's with COVID. What do you want to do? And my immediate thought was because I really want to see my friend is, oh, it'll be fine. And then I go, you know what, Laura, let's pause for a second. Let me think on this for a few minutes and let me get back to you later tonight because I knew that I was reacting out of just this.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (24:20)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:39)
uh, shoulds and wants and like not from a place of like taking really good care of myself. Like I got off the call and I looked at my husband, I went, it would be stupid to purposely expose myself, right? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, okay, thanks. I just needed to confirm that because there's a part of me that just was like, Oh, wear a mask and you know, and I'll get to go hang out with my friend and I don't get to see her very often and like, but
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (25:09)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:11)
best self-care prevailed.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (25:12)
Yes, yeah, the pause is super important. And like, you know, it could have been like a retro hangout, like, you know, lockdowns, like let's do it virtual and have drinks. Oh, cool.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:23)
Yeah, we did. We got
on FaceTime instead. I came, I flew back to San Diego early instead of going over to her side of the state. And, um, we just jumped on a couple of hour call, which is kind of what we would have done at her house. We just would have had good snacks. Like it would have been the same thing. Kids would have went to bed. The snacks would have flown. I'd have been trying to stay awake. It would have, I know exactly how this goes because we do this when we do it together.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (25:41)
snack.
Yes, yes, a sidebar. What is like your kind of like go to hangout snack? Like somebody's coming over, you're going to hang out. Like what is the snack you pull out?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:56)
Yes.
Well, I'm not, I don't, I feel like it doesn't happen at my house. I feel like these are always things that happen really her and I, like, there was a point where I was like, maybe she'll come over to the, I was staying on the East side of the state. It was like, maybe she'll come over here and we'll get a hotel room and just have a girls night. And my husband, Paul goes, what does a girls night look like? And I go, Oh, we're just going to bring a whole bunch of snacks, watch TV and talk. Like it's, it's nothing scandalous at all. But she usually has like,
sweet and salty and like a mix of things. So there's like, um, we're both red vine fans. So like there's going to be red vines. There's going to be like some kind of cheese and cracker kind of situation, maybe meat. It's some kind of, you know, char charcuterie board. I have such a hard time with that word. Yes, charcuterie, whatever.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (26:56)
You're a man. Hehe
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:00)
You know, a selection of all sorts of things. And she'll just keep coming out with different things. And there's usually alcohol. Yeah. So maybe desserts, you know, whatever. Like, yeah, she has kids. She keeps all the best snacks at her house. Like I go through her cupboards when I get there. Cause I'm like, ooh, we're gonna have graham crackers. Like things that I just don't keep in my house. Kid snacks.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (27:08)
Hmm.
All right.
Yeah,
yeah, kids snacks are great. It's like they're handy. You can have like a couple of them. Yeah, I love kids snacks. You're from Michigan, is that correct?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:34)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I started my first 40 years were in West Michigan around Kalamazoo. And then I, um, my partner moved out here to San Diego in 2016. And I followed him like two years later. Um, love Southern California. I feel like I should have lived here my whole life. Um, and then we moved to Baltimore for, well, we were there for a couple of years. We were there for probably three years.
But I was only there full-time for one year. And then I started being part-time back and forth between San Diego and Baltimore. And then we finished and came back full-time at the end of May. So, yep. So, yeah, but my, I grew up in a little farm town called Delton in Michigan. My mom lived in the same house. Like it was like generations of people from my family being there.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (28:17)
Yeah, I remember that.
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:34)
And like I had her teachers and her bus drivers. Like it was just a very small, small town. So, yep.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (28:39)
Hmm, wow. Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:43)
Yeah. Have you always lived in the, the DC Yeah. It's a D.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (28:46)
like DC area, or the DMV as they
call it. Yeah, so I was born in DC and lived there until I was about 10, then like a suburb of DC in Southern Maryland called Clinton, Maryland. Used to be called like Saratsville, it's like Mary Sarat and John Wilkes Booth and Dr. Mudd, it's like a whole thing, Lincoln assassination thing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:14)
Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (29:15)
So from there, moved to Virginia, like way west of DC, like in a pretty rural part. Then moved to Connecticut, where I worked at ESPN for a number of years. Worked in television for like most of my career, moved back to, I should have.
Do not disturb that. Move back from Connecticut back to Virginia to be closer to family. That was around 2005. And yeah, I've been in Virginia since.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:45)
Ha ha
Cool, I'll be back.
Okay, you ready to jump into cards?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (30:00)
Hmm. Yeah, maybe all this chatting was like avoiding jumping into the card But I guess, uh, yeah, I am willing to jump into the card.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:05)
Ah, ha ha.
Okay, so I just I randomly pulled this one out and I want to give you full consent. You can always pass. You're welcome. Finish the sentence just by looking at you, I think.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (30:17)
Thank you.
Hmm, that's super, ugh. That's super open. Yeah, okay. So I'm gonna take a second and look and see what comes up. Okay, so just by looking at you, I think blank.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:29)
I'm sorry.
It's so it's so broad right? Yeah
I'd
think blank.
I'm just going to go with the first thing that popped in my head when this came up, when I answered my side of it. I can go first if you want, or you can go first. Okay, so this is what popped in my head. I don't know rhyme or reason. We're just going to say it with no explanation. Just by looking at you, I think that you were a singer. I don't know why.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (31:01)
Sure, that'll give me more time, yes.
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:19)
Maybe it's more like listening to you. I would think you were a singer.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (31:21)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:25)
Hahaha
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (31:25)
I like it. Yeah, I've never been a singer. I sing around the house like sometimes, but yeah, no training, no gigs or anything.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:35)
You have a beautiful voice as far
as like you have a voice for radio as they say. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (31:39)
Oh, thank you.
Okay, my squirming around and avoiding goes away now. Just by looking at you, I think.
Yeah, I think you're happy.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:59)
I mean, that's, that's a good, I would say I would, there's nothing about my life I would change. So I'd say yeah. Yeah. That's good. I don't want to come off as like resting bitch face. Although it's fine. I have one of the new I have one of the sweatshirts that are all over social media that say be kind. And then underneath it says of a bitch.
And I just see that as having good boundaries.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (32:25)
I love it.
Yes, I love a good one-liner. That's incredible. But yeah, I mean, looking at you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:31)
Mm-hmm.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (32:38)
Just, I mean, even as I was about to like reveal what the blank was, yeah, there was just like this presence and yeah, openness, receptiveness that's in you and yeah, in my experience, only people that are pretty happy with their lives are able to be like that present, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:03)
Yeah,
yeah, I've had I've had Michelle 1.0 that was not on the side of the of the experience. So I think that's what makes me so happy is I have like the I can see the difference like I know with the difference I've been on I've had great loss and grief to be able to really like experience like real deep happiness. So yeah. Mm hmm. Okay, see, it's not that hard.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (33:11)
Hmm.
Yeah. Ah.
I'm going to go to bed.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:37)
Oh, okay. Okay, this is level two connection. If you have, when was the moment you realized you weren't invincible?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (33:39)
Ooh, oh boy.
Mmm.
Hmm, yeah. Um, so back in 2016, I was transitioning out of my like corporate television job into massage therapy. And
just really randomly, I was helping like some random person lift something and I wrenched my back and it kept getting like worse and worse and worse to the point where I was like bed bound for like a month like couldn't walk, I like had severe sciatica but like leading up to where I like couldn't move, I was still just trying to do everything regularly but the pain, it's like my body was like, you.
Like, there's no way that you can. So that experience really, really let me know. It's like, you're not invincible. Aging is a thing. And all the ways that I hadn't taken care of my back, hadn't taken care of my body, like, yeah, really showed up. So, yeah, that was really stark. That was a really big wake-up call. And it's like, yeah.
You're not invincible.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:16)
Thanks for leading on that, because you totally popped a memory into my head that I can use. For me, the invincible thing, I'm going to interchange it with my ego thinking that I'm still 18. And opportunities, invitations, and I'm like, yeah, run into the fire.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (35:32)
Mmm, yep.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:38)
I'm not like, it's like my ego just gets an opportunity. It's like, yeah, you can go do that. You're a badass. You can do whatever you want. Right. And I was at the rock climbing gym and I like rock climbing. Like, I guess you call it top roping, um, where I have a harness on and I come off the wall just like everybody else. Right. Um, we had, we were going with friends and they had, they were doing bouldering, which is like the shorter walls. You don't have a harness.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (35:52)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:07)
There's big mats underneath in case you fall kind of stuff. And that was their kind of sweet spot. And so we were going to do bouldering and I got like the quick, the quick no frills, um, instruction. I assumed I knew what I was doing. It was like, they told me like they, when I say they, it was not people from the gym. It was the people we were climbing with was like, yeah, you just.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (36:30)
So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:32)
You know, you climb up and you go over the top of the of the of the top of the wall, and then you walk down the stairs to come back down. And if you do fall, make sure that you bend your knees and fall backwards. And I was like, OK. 18 year this is this is Michelle in her 40s, but her 18 year old ego is like, yeah, we got this. And I start climbing up the wall and then I gas out before I can complete the wall.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (36:46)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:01)
and I don't have enough in me to even climb back down the wall. So I like, all right, this is how you get off the wall, Michelle. And I, I thought I was doing what they told me to do, which was like land on my back, like I literally just like ejected myself off the wall, falling and hitting flat on my back. And I felt my lower back just brick, right? Like.
And I just screamed and Paul and our climbing buddies come running over like, what the fuck did you just do? And I'm like, isn't that what you told me to do? They're like, no, you need to like drop down, bend your knees and fall backwards. And I'm like, oh, well, my knees would have never taken that either. Like I didn't have an exit strategy when I decided that I could be a yes to this of like, what do you do if you can't complete the wall? Like I was.
probably 100 pounds heavier than I am now or close to that. My knees could not, even at this weight I know that if I fell like that on my knees, it would be a no good. And I remember on the way home, I think we pulled in for gas or something and I was just like crying and I'm like, I just fucked up my life for the next however many weeks while I repair this because my ego said yes.
I didn't slow down like we just talked about, slow down and play this out. How does this go if it goes well, but how does it go if it doesn't go well? Right? I'm all about taking chances and pushing my edges and whatnot, but if it's coming from a place of invincibility like this card talks about, that's what I felt like. It was like this quick decision thinking that I was invincible and I quickly got reminded.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (38:40)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:58)
that I am not. And I don't boulder, that is not my jam. I will stay coming down the wall in a harness, you know, floating to the earth. That is my preferred method.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (39:10)
Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that story. I could, when you said, when you talked about the impact, it's like I could almost feel it in my body. And yeah, there are those moments where somebody says like, oh, do the blah, blah. And it's like, oh yeah, sure, right? And just like, no, I've learned, let me actually pause and see.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (39:38)
if it's physically doable for me, because otherwise I would play myself. Ooh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:47)
I think that's part of like the getting older process. Like, that is something I had to learn.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (39:50)
Yeah, for sure.
Hmm. A question quickly. If you would like to share, what is your age? Ooh, so am I. Yeah. Okay. Okay, you're keeping it tight. You look good. If you're open to me, if you're open to me commenting on your physical appearance, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:58)
Yeah.
and 48.
Oh, you are? Awesome. I love it.
I feel good. Oh, yeah, no.
I feel really good. And my body still has the aches and pains that kind of started showing up at 40. Like I said, I did have it said on this episode, but I have an episode coming out we talk about bariatric surgery, I had bariatric surgery a couple years ago, and I'm on maintenance medication. And in it.
It is nice to be able to do a lot of things that I did before when I was 100, I guess I'm down like 120 some pounds. It didn't stop me from doing things before, but I can do them more often and with more ease and I'm an easier yes. So like one of the examples I give is like here in San Diego, we have a nude beach called Black's Beach and it, oh you have.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (41:01)
I've been there.
When I was like 10 years old.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:06)
Oh, okay, so you might not remember how horrible it is to get to black beach but
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (41:09)
I,
that, that's one of the things I actually remember. It's like, there's a cliff and you go down like a really, really steep embankment. And like, there's no like stairs until like the very, are there even stairs?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:20)
Oh,
I think you might've went down maybe like, um, there's something called like, there's a few different paths down, like the surfers take, there are stairs from the top, but they're very primitive. It is, is very like, uh, is not ADA compliant. I'll just say that is, it is, um, maybe in the show notes I can put, there's lots of videos on YouTube about the hike down to black speech cause people put their GoPros on and record it. Um,
I used to do it once a year because my friend Sara would want me to come. She was down there all the time and she'd be like, for my birthday, will you come down? And I'm like, yes. But it felt like watching The Biggest Loser where they run them through those incredibly intense exercises and they're like, I think I'm going to die right now. I'd feel like my heart was going to come out of my chest and it's so intense. And now I can do it. I usually am down there once a month.
the winter not so much because a little too cold. But I don't hesitate to go down. Like I know I can make it back up. I started timing myself to see how fast I could do it and beat my old record kind of stuff. Like it's a different mindset. And I had to go through this space of like when I would immediately, when somebody would say, want to go to Blacks? And I'd immediately go, oh, I'm like, wait a minute, Michelle, you're saying that from an old version of you. There's a new story.
Right? Yeah, it's hard, but it's not that I don't think I'm going to die. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (42:55)
Cool. Yeah, thank you for sharing all that. Yeah, especially about your surgery.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:59)
Yeah.
So if you ever come back out to San Diego and you want to go to Blacks, you let me know.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (43:07)
I'll let you know, I'm a little, I mean, I do live in a larger body and I have my own, hangups is the word that comes up. Yeah, I mean, it's been part of my journey, really becoming comfortable in my body and being seen in my nakedness.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:19)
Yeah.
Hmm?
Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (43:34)
Yeah, is still a thing. And...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:37)
Well, if
it's something you want to tackle, I get this is another thing I just did with this woman that was in town working with me this last week was we did do a field trip to a place where she could be naked in public to help get over the body image stuff. And we really kept it. We went to the Korean spa.
And it was nice because it was, you know, they segregate by gender. So she wasn't having, it was like a titrated experience of like, okay, this time we're just going to be naked in front of other women. Right. And maybe another time she'll be ready to go. I offered like, we have a nudist resort just about an hour north of me that I really like. And that's another place to go be naked in a public situation that is controlled environment, as far as you don't have to walk down a ridiculous flight of stairs to get.
to a space where you could be openly naked. And in those like, the nudists community is such a really welcoming non-judgmental space. It's a different, it's a little different than going to Blacks Beach and that Blacks Beach is public, public. Like anybody and their brother can come down there and be gawkers and like there's especially women down there. It's this, it's very heavily.
Like it's, it's a sausage fest in a lot of ways, as far as there's a lot of men down there. And they don't, I don't think men understand what it's like to live in a woman's body and have the, the male gaze on her all the time. And like, if you come up to us at the beach and want to sit right by us, it's really uncomfortable. It's like we need a bubble, right? And some of those men just don't understand that they're not actually helping their cause.
Like the ones that we're friends with, they just know how to behave in those spaces differently. They show a lot more respect. So anyways, if you ever want to work on that, Darren, I'm totally like a plus one for that. It's totally my thing.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (45:46)
Well, I will let you know.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:48)
Yep, you let me know. Okay. So our last card in this deck is reflection. So the question is, what do I need to hear right now?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (45:56)
Okay.
Hmm, I'm ascertaining what you need to hear.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:07)
No, I think about yourself.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (46:10)
Oh, okay.
We might have to go first again.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:15)
Yeah, I'm thinking.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (46:18)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:23)
Hmm. This is a weird, I feel like this is coming from old stuff for me. With the thing that I'm gonna trust it and put my pride aside, I need to hear that you respect me.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (46:41)
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:43)
Like you respect my work. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (46:48)
show.
I really deeply respect you. And yeah, I really respect your work.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:00)
I know it's so weird because like I know that and I don't even like my internal like I respect myself and I know that stuff But yeah, sometimes we just like to hear it So, thank you
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (47:09)
Hmm.
Yeah, you're welcome. Is it okay if I say that again and then we just take a little pause after? Let it really land, okay?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, I will.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (47:21)
Michelle.
I respect you and I deeply respect your work.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:36)
Thank you. I feel very seen. Yeah, thank you for giving me that. I really appreciate that.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (47:37)
Mmm. You're welcome. You're welcome.
Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, that was my pleasure and that was super easy to give. Super easy to give. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I think I have something. I would like to hear.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:56)
Yeah, sometimes we just have to ask, right?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (48:16)
Yeah, that there is a.
like space. Well, yeah, I am welcomed in like the intimacy professional space as I am.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:40)
Mm.
Again, it's like, yeah, let me easily affirm you in that space that you are wanted there, appreciated there. You, even just the energy you bring around wanting to put your modalities, like to work together in your multiple modalities and how you're navigating that speaks to me so, so deeply of like, there's a deep understanding to what you do.
Because to be able to pull those things together, you have to understand what you're doing. And I respect the shit out of the fact that you're talking about it. We need more of that. So your voice is so celebrated there. It's great to see your energy, because you're just, again, you carry happiness with you too. And yes, I love having you there.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (49:23)
Mm.
Mmm.
HUUU
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:45)
I wanna cuddle you so fucking hard.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (49:51)
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:52)
We're going to have to definitely get together when I'm in town. I want to hug you. Like.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (49:54)
Yeah, I'm open to coming.
Mmm. Woof. So thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:05)
It's all yummy.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (50:10)
UGH!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:12)
How did we find you in the intimacy professionals? Who, what was your connection to us?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (50:17)
So Francesca Gentile put me in contact with Brian. And then, yeah, I just kind of came on in, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:21)
Oh yeah.
That's awesome.
Yeah, it's such a it's such a lovely network of just organic, like it's we haven't done much to promote it. I think I've come I think I've mentioned it on social media just a couple of times over the couple of years. But people come in and then they spread the word and it's so good.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (50:48)
Yeah, I mean, it's a really great group. And yeah, just some of the conversations that I have nothing to add to, like are super enlightening and have shown me like so many different aspects of like intimacy work. Like there's this big umbrella, but like there's so much underneath it. And yeah, really passionate.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:09)
Mm-hmm.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (51:17)
people, really kind people, knowledgeable people. Yeah, yeah, it's been like a real gift to be able to be accepted in that circle.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:32)
Yeah, I love the variety. Because like you said, I get to learn a little bit more about everyone's work. And the fact that we have talk and touch people there, like we're all getting to have a really better understanding of each other and what we, how we can work together and the referrals that can happen from that space and like getting to know, like not just know what they do, but to know the practitioner, to understand.
their values, like the fact that people show up on the call says to me a lot about their desire to not be on an island.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (52:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:16)
Because some people like to be on the island. Like they, I think, I'm making assumptions, I'm clearly not one of those people. I think there are people. Because like there's one people I've invited to those groups and when they don't come without like, I mean, there's plenty of reason not to come schedule wise and whatnot, but when they don't find an interest in it, I'm always like a little curious as to why they wouldn't be interested in it, you know? So.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (52:42)
Hmm,
I may be able to speak to that a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, when I came in, there's, I've been doing the sexual shamanic work, practitioner work for a while, but kind of self-taught and have been mentored by people and have learned things. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:47)
Please enlighten me.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (53:10)
and being a massage therapist where, like, sexuality is kind of stripped out of that. Just starting sex bod work. Yeah, coming in is kind of like, ooh, like, am I gonna be up to snuff, right? Like, who's in this group? Like, are they gonna, like, judge me? Like, am I gonna have anything to add? So, like, yeah, there's like, you know, for me, there was a little bit of
Um, Ooh, like, am I going to fit in? But that's like the story of my life. And I've embraced that recently. So it's like, I know in some way I'm not going to fit in and I'm just going in. Anyway.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:55)
Yeah, well, thanks for being brave and doing that. Set that imposter syndrome aside. And we've had other people like, thankfully talk about like the beauty of vulnerability to actually speak that in the space. I've had people say, I feel like an imposter because of the people that I'm in space with here in this group. And then everybody got to like kind of chime in with where they find found their voice valuable.
in a way that I think the person couldn't see it for themselves. I remember my therapist here in San Diego, the last time I had a therapist here in San Diego, he really helped me understand the power of kind of like mirroring and like seeing ourselves through other people's eyes until we could do that for ourselves and finding our own worth. And yeah, I think we were able to do that for this person. And
it sounds like you've settled in and know that, I mean, know that you have a space there. And everybody gets to participate at their own level. Right? Like some people are gonna just listen and some people are gonna find that that's not a good fit for them. Like that's also something that happens. And that's totally, gosh, thank you for taking care of yourself and realizing this isn't kind of the area of either your work or it's too much. Like we talked pretty openly there about...
some of our own personal struggles in our work, and it can be a lot for people if they're not used to working in the sex field, right? Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (55:26)
Yeah, yeah,
which I mean, are there a lot of people that like consider themselves like intimacy professionals, but don't deal directly with sex?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:44)
Well, I think that if you're on the talk side of it, and you're coming into a space with a bunch of body workers, especially sex workers that are doing full-service sex work, and you start to learn, maybe you have an idea about those people that isn't accurate.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (56:04)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:06)
It could be over positive or maybe on the more negative side, but to know the real ins and outs of like, I think I was talking about a client specifically when this kind of came up where I was having to kind of pep talk myself, right? And that can be uncomfortable if you come from a background. I have a background myself in coercion in my previous first marriage. I have to question myself. Why am I about to have sex with this client?
Is it because I feel like I have to? Sometimes it does feel like that's part of it, right? I have a responsibility to help this client meet their goals. And is that okay, right? We talk about compassionate willingness in surrogate partner therapy. I think that's a concept that is really hard for some people to wrap their head around, that this is sex work is work.
And if you're not ready to really look at it that way, it just, or you don't want to, maybe it's just not the energy you want to be around. That can be an incompatibility for that space for sure. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (57:20)
Hmm.
Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:26)
Yeah, that's
a good question. Yeah. We didn't even attempt to jump into the sex box. We did talk about sex.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (57:35)
I mean, we can't if there's time. I'm open and I remember.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:41)
mind
going longer only because I mean, I got time. Okay, because we're at like the hour mark here. So let's see. Let's see what happens. Are you ready?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (57:45)
Yeah, I got time.
Yeah, and I reserve the right to pass to the next round.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:56)
To pass, yes,
yes. Okay.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (58:01)
HMMM
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:03)
Okay, this is meant for a group, but we're gonna just, I'm gonna pick a different one. I don't think it's gonna work for that. I just don't even want to have to try to tackle that one. I'll tell you what it was though. Who in this room owns the most amount of sex toys? And I'm like, I don't know what that number is.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (58:14)
Okay.
Hmm. I'm gonna just make a uneducated assumption and say it's gonna be you, maybe.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:24)
Hmm.
Okay, probably then if you don't think that you have a lot to compete with then hey, that's fair. Okay, why not? Do you think I've ever had a threesome? Why or why not?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (58:48)
Do I think you have ever had a threesome? Um.
No.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:00)
Fascinating. I have had plenty of them.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (59:04)
Oh, okay. Well, you said that like, you know, you're like, you date like exclusively like dicks and like you're not
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:13)
Well,
not really. No, I mean, I just have more experience with them.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (59:17)
Oh, you have more? Okay, okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:19)
Yeah,
and I've had threesomes with multiple penises too. I mean, but they have been varied in their gender. The genders I have partook in group spaces. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (59:29)
Hmm, interesting. Okay,
okay. That was a cognitive answer.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:36)
Let me say, because I always like to say a little farther. In July of 2015, I was on Twitter, maybe it was the end of June, somewhere in that range. And there was a conversation going of like, how many people does it take to qualify as a gangbang? No, not gangbang, orgy. That's what it was.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:00:04)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:06)
And I think we figured like five or something is what we decided to, I don't know. It was a Twitter conversation. I don't know what it was, but it doesn't matter. I declared at that point, I wanted to host an orgy. That was my goal for the coming like year or whatever. Put it out into the universe of Twitter. And that year for 4th of July, like maybe July, it was like July 3rd, a bunch of my friends and I went out for drinks or something. We're sitting on this, at this bar.
rooftop bar thing. And I said it again, I said, I really want to host an orgy. And everybody went around the table and they all opted in that night. They all followed me back to my place. I lived in this underground house. So it had like, I had, I had a couple acres of land in West Michigan, this underground house. My father was camping in the front yard.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:00:48)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:05)
I said, everybody's just got to enter the house quietly. If we keep the windows closed, you won't hear anything. Cause this is like, this house is like built like a parking garage. Like it's covered in dirt and like the only, like it has windows on the south side, but everything else is all in case. So if the windows are closed, it's pretty quiet. And I managed, nobody chickened out. Like all 10 people showed up at my house and I hosted my first party.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:01:32)
Hmm?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:33)
It's like, look at you setting intentions. Yup.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:01:35)
Wow,
went around the table and everyone was a yes. That's incredible.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:40)
Everyone
was yes. And my primary partner at the time was at a different party that night. And I remember messaging him and going, ha ha, look what you're missing out on. Like I'm hosting this party and you're not here. So, okay. Do I think you've ever had a threesome?
I always think yes, because you're getting into the sexuality world. So I'm just going to say yes, just because I think it's so normal on our side of the tracks.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:02:09)
Hmm, like the technical answer, I guess, is like, yes, but it was like weird and kind of sucked. So like, yeah, I don't really count it. It was like this weird, like two people wanted to get together, but like, I was like there, but I tried to remove myself, but like somehow I got no head. Yeah, it was like.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:33)
So you are included because
it's like polite.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:02:37)
Right, it's like, why am I even, I left, like I left the room, like why am I even here? So it doesn't, it's like a yes, but it doesn't quite count. And yeah, yeah. And like, you know, even when I, whenever I think about it now, like the possibility of it, I mean, honestly, it creates some anxiety for me because it's like, feels, yeah, like feel, I mean, I guess it might be like some old,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:46)
There's an etiquette to three ways. I mean, there really is.
Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:03:07)
Like people pleasing stuff, but it's like having to manage like more than one person manage the energy like having to perform And all that and I'm like getting to the point where I realize it's like oh Like I can just show up and they can just be whatever it is and there doesn't have to be an expectation. So Yeah
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:03:26)
Yeah, yeah.
I taught a couple how to attend sex parties one time. And part of that was to give them like a meta three way where we just like, had a three way in a teaching way, like, we all engaged, but it was very much Michelle had her teacher hat on like, this is a good opportunity to do this. And this is a good opportunity to that because they've never had a third in their relationship.
Going to sex parties is a big step, and how are you going to feel if you see your partner engage with someone else? Doing that in the safety of a professional container. Super smart, savvy. This was a really proactive couple that I got to work with a few different things. One time, the wife wanted to learn how to peg. And so I taught her how to peg her husband, which was really fun. And just I like.
I like when couples are just exploratory and not coming to like fix something. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:04:29)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Yeah, in my work, like I've actually like made the decision like not to work with couples. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:38)
Mm-hmm.
I rarely do.
I've rarely done it, so the ratio of positive and negative experiences are pretty equal right now and that's not a good place to be. I know more now. If I had the same couple show up in my office and there was this kind of air of fix my wife.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:05:10)
Mmm, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:11)
I'm going to
fix her right out of your relationship is what I'm going to do. Right. I'm going to burn this shit down. Um, but on the, on the flip side, I had, um, I'm working with a client in, in. They're one of their partners wanted to learn more about what we were doing in session together, like the exercises and stuff so that they could practice them at home. And that was lovely.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:05:15)
Exactly.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:39)
Like it just came in with this like curiosity and just this positive air to it about building off of what they already have, not fixing something. Right.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:05:48)
Yes,
yeah, that sounds actually really beautiful. Yeah, I mean, I just believe that like, if a person like fully dives into themselves and learns about themselves, then, then yeah, the relating piece will not necessarily sort itself out, but yeah, it'll become a lot less.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:06:04)
Ha!
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:06:17)
charged, right? Like as a person becomes more comfortable with themselves as they open up, then the way that they relate with their partner is just naturally gonna change. So, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:06:30)
It's like, it's not about learning a certain set of moves, right? I always say like, it's not Cosmo's 10 things to blow her mind. That's not what we need to do here.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:06:33)
Exactly, yeah.
Exactly.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:06:44)
That's where my cuddle background shows up. You want another one? You ready to go to stage two, the double X? I gotta find one that's not a wild card. You don't know this, but wild cards I just don't like.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:06:49)
Sure. Uh-oh, stage two.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:04)
I'm going to skip that one. That feels a little too... What's the worst head you've ever given and what did it teach you?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:07:06)
Well, what was it?
Okay, interesting.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:17)
Um.
Oh, this is an interesting one. How much do you trust yourself to stay faithful in a relationship?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:07:27)
Hmm... Hmm!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:29)
Are you
in a relationship? What's your relationship status?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:07:32)
Yeah, so I'm currently cohabitating with my co-parent. And I'm in a long-term committed relationship. And I identify as poly and ethically non-monogamous. So yeah, there's a few satellites that fly in. And I have some friends with benefits. And I have just like, um.
some friends that are, you know, not the same gender as me. So, yeah, my constellation just kind of looks like all kinds of ways and everyone is like aware, there's open communication. Yeah, I mean, I do trust myself to be faithful, right? Because, yeah, to me, faithful doesn't equal
monogamous, not having sex with no one else except for your partner. It just means that, um, yeah, you're open and you're honest and everyone gets to consent to what happens, right? It's like, these are the types of relationships that I have with these people. And yeah, the person that receives that information gets to choose how they want to relate with me and we can, you know, figure something out of that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:30)
monogamous.
Yeah.
honoring our agreements, right? Yeah. I am, I'm primarily a pair bondy person. I've tried I've tried the poly world. I think I have a poly Amorous heart as in like, I think I have such rich, beautiful relationships all around me that it looks very much like the poly world. And, and I'm also like,
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:09:00)
Absolutely, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:09:27)
It's such a complicated, how to identify. We're technically monogamous right now, as far as like we're not engaging in recreational sex with others. I clearly still have my work, but my partner understands that is not the same as having sex outside of like work.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:09:45)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:09:49)
Some people, I think the people, sex workers that are in relationships, it's not going to work if your partner thinks that this is the same thing as going out and just consensually hooking up with people. It's just not the same. But we engage very fluidly with the people around us. It's just right now we're sexually monogamous.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:10:04)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:18)
because I have some old wounds that I just, sometimes I get tired of working on myself. And I'm like, I just need it. I just need things to be calm for a while because I get triggered pretty easily. But so in this question, how much do I trust myself to stay faithful in my relationship? 100%, which is really funny, not funny. The contrast of that is my first marriage, I cheated all the time.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:10:23)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:48)
I was always like either emotionally infidelitous, or however you would call that, or even physically at times. And in some would say, well, once a cheater, always a cheater. But I think in this situation, it was like I didn't have a true sense of autonomy in that this was like, I didn't feel like I could.
talked to my partner, I didn't feel like I could change my circumstances. I felt like I had to be rescued. Like I was waiting for the rescue plan kind of thing. Not that I couldn't do it for myself, but somebody else would rescue me. Um, so I look at it and I go, well, you were in a shitty relationship, which I would never leave myself in anymore. Right. We were, it was a trapped. Ness.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:11:42)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:11:43)
And so I'm not the same person I was then. So now like I'm incredibly loyal. Whatever those agreements are, like wherever we're at, and we renegotiate usually once a year, like on our anniversary, we talk about what we want for the next year of our relationship. And so it's never like, this is the way it is, it's just, this is the way it is right now. Yeah, and like, what is, what can we do? What can't we do? Like...
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:12:06)
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:12:11)
My partner really enjoys Shabari and rope, right? And I'm finding myself not enjoying it anymore. And it's nice to be able to be like, he's gonna go to a rope thing on Wednesday and I'm not gonna go with him, right? He can tie other people. I'm totally fine with that. Like it's just having these open conversations. I wanna have the option if I decided to change my mind to go jump into rope with him again.
but I'm really okay outsourcing it. Like, yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:12:44)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And that communication can really foster a comfort. It's like, it sounds like you're comfortable with him going in to have these experiences with someone else because it doesn't take away or detract from what you have with him.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:13:02)
No,
yeah. But when we are open, I get I get a little nutty. Because of abandonment, stuff and how my first marriage ended. And like, there's just stuff that comes up that I just don't feel like feeling. But if I know sex isn't on the table, for whatever reason, this is like purity culture bullshit flowing. I'll totally honor that. I just relax a lot more.
Yeah, I lost my first husband. I say lost, it was so good that it ended, right? Like I'm so grateful for that. But it was in the midst of us having some other relating happening and it shined a light on where we didn't have a connection. And I don't believe that in my current relationship, but the memory is still there and it activates me and I'm like, this is exhausting.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:14:01)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:14:02)
And neither one of us care enough about it. Like, I think the way I think about it is if at any time we needed to change that, whether it's for a one-off situation or somebody's needs changed, we would just do that. We would just change it and I would tackle my shit, but it's not important to either one of us right now. So it's all conscious. That's what's important. Pick the thing that is like a choice and not just something that's placed on you.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:14:22)
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely. Always, always, always like being at choice. And even if it's like, I don't want to deal with this right now. Like, like that's a choice too. It's like, I'm going to say no, because I don't want to deal with it. Like, I understand this might make you happy, but it's too triggering for me. Like that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:14:42)
Yeah.
Well...
Well, and he doesn't care. He's like, this is not important to me. And honestly, if you ever tallied up the scoreboard, I was way more, um, active than he was, but I'm a, like, I joke, like he takes his time playing, his time is spent playing video games and that kind of world where my world is very people-based and so I had, I would just, in more opportunities.
I liked the option to connect with my friends in different ways. I didn't feel like, I said I got out of the poly side of it because I didn't feel like I really wanted to build other romantic relationships. But when it came to my friendships, it was nice to know that they could go wherever they went and I wasn't breaking any of those agreements with my partner.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:15:40)
Yeah, yeah, that's like the thing that I really love about, yeah, like open and polyamorous relationships is that it doesn't have to be any one set thing. And yeah, like, I love to connect with people through touch, like for my like friendships.
and intimate relationships, I do feel best when there is a level of touch that can be shared that some people may not view as platonic. Some people might be like, oh, this is whatever. I try to put a label on it. But me and whoever I'm relating with, we get to decide
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:16:22)
Mm-hmm.
rates.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:16:36)
like what that looks like.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:16:38)
Yeah, I think that it also solves the, maybe doesn't solve isn't the right word. I think that when sex with others is not considered taboo or a scarcity, we approach it differently, right? Because when I was married before, this person would come into my life that I had a pull towards. And because I couldn't, I wasn't supposed to take it anywhere there. It became this like
fantasy not based anywhere in reality, right? You got to kind of obsess, like have obsessive thoughts around this thing that you couldn't access, right? And it gives it power that for me, just like, there's ways I would describe my sexuality and it keeps getting more clear to me all the time. I've realized this year that I don't experience sexual attraction.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:17:21)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:17:35)
I experience other kinds of attraction. I wanna be, like when I say, oh, I wanna cuddle you, Darren, that is my version of like sexual attraction. It's this sensual attraction where I'm like, I wanna be close to you. I wanna hear all, I wanna do these cards with you. I wanna have emotional and physical intimacy with you, but it's not, it doesn't go to the sex place in my initial contact. So I am on the asexual spectrum, which is really fascinating to know about myself.
but being in that container of, oh, I got to have the closeness with you, then I may get turned on, arousal may show up, and then desire shows up, right? But what I learned from Aubri Lancaster, I've said this on, feels like a lot of podcasts lately, she's a asexuality educator, was that sexual attraction is pointed at a person where sexual desire is the desire for sex. It's not.
person specific necessarily, right? So like for me, how I would describe like my sexuality orientation, one of the therapists the other night said, I would call you your sexuality is responsive sexuality. Like it just shows up in response to something. And I was like, oh, that's really an interesting way to think about it. I've also called myself a curious sexual that I just get curious about someone.
Like I shared this story the other day, Brian Gibney has great touch. His Sensate Focus Hand Caress is intoxicating. My brain goes to, if he can touch my hand like that, right? The curiosity shows up. It's not the same as like what I envision sexual attraction feels like. I think I've had it one time at a party years ago. I walked in and it was so foreign to me. It scared me and I left.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:19:36)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:19:36)
Like, that's how I, looking back at this in retrospect, I'm like, yeah, I think maybe that one time, that's why it felt so odd to me and so overwhelming in that I just left the party. Yeah, the things you can retrospectively go back and look at. So all of that plays into the complications of how I connect with people. Like.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:19:48)
Wow.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:05)
I would rather cuddle the shit out of them. Aubri she uses the term polyaffectionate. And I'm like, oh, that relates. I can relate to that. And I think of my work as an outlet for a lot of that because I just get to love, like I get paid to love people. It's so great. And I think it alleviates my...
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:20:10)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:26)
husband used to say, you have way too much love, I can't handle it all, you need to be able to spread it to other people. If it was solely focused on him, he would lose his mind. And I get to do that through work. So maybe that's why I don't.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:20:36)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:43)
participate in those communities quite as much. I'm an introvert. By the time I get done with work, I loved all I could.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:20:51)
I hear you. Yeah, yeah, need a little cave time.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:55)
Oh my gosh, cave time is real important.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:20:58)
Yeah, yeah, I've heard the term like, polysensual batted around and that's kind of, like how I identify like, I really love sensation and sharing like sensual intimacy, but like, you know, actual like penetrative sex is like, it's all right, right? Like, it's not like,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:04)
Mm.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:21:27)
a driving factor when I connect with someone.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:32)
Yeah, yeah, it's an off shoot or I don't know.
Okay. Are you ready for our last question? We're in the triple X level. And I put a lot of cards back because I was like, nope, don't feel like going down that road. Okay.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:21:51)
Okay,
um, uh, let me clear my throat for a second. Okay, I'm ready.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:59)
What's something you try in bed bet if there were no consequences?
I know my answer.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:22:07)
Well, since you have one ready, go for it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:22:10)
I have a real big fascination with gang bangs from a sense of, it's one of those things I would love to just try it and check the box. I'm sure I wouldn't would need to do it more than once. But the risk factors seem a lot higher in that space. Like, I feel like you have to have a gang bang manager.
I've heard too many stories. I listened to Dan Savage, and I remember this one episode where somebody called it, and this is where I learned about the term gangbang manager. And the story was horrendous. And I know I would have a much more curated space, because I'm very fortunate to have community that could do this in a very safe and responsible way. But this story just kind of like this woman was reporting back that condoms were being left in her.
And I'm just like, there's just so much of a safety thing around that for me. So that is the thing that I don't, I have a curiosity, but I don't have enough drive to take it off the, the just fantasy list. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:23:14)
Yeah, well luckily
the card said if there were no consequences. Yeah. Huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:23:17)
No consequences, right?
I'm sorry.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:23:27)
Uh, huh, this is interesting. Like, um, hmm, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:23:37)
And if you, if you just want to contemplate it and you, and you don't feel like sharing it, like you don't have to share it on the recording. That's up to you.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:23:43)
Yeah, I mean, you know,
like, I can be vulnerable here. And yeah, a little, yeah, a little, like, yeah, it is like an edge, like pushing an edge.
Yeah, if there were like no consequences. Yeah, like kind of like this, like vinyl rubber play where people's breath is restricted. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the vacuum, yeah. Yeah, that's...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:24:20)
Mm-hmm like the bed one where they put you in the yeah
curious to you.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:24:29)
Yeah, yeah, very curious. I mean, in some ways, like, it's exciting to watch. And, like, watching it on the screen is like, enough, like safety. It's like enough distance. It's like, okay, like, okay, I can watch a little while, but it seems really, yeah, dangerous in some ways, which might, like, heighten the appeal. But yeah, it seems like it takes a high level of expertise to be able to top for something like that, like, safely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:24:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, I was at Dark Odyssey summer camp. Is that the one that happens, Labor Day weekend in Maryland? I think it's Dark Odyssey summer camp. And they had a class on that and I was a little, I didn't go to it, but I was a little curious. There's some things I have a hard time.
I don't even want to be around it. I watched a waterboarding scene one time, and I was like, whoa, I don't think I could do that again. I definitely don't want to participate in it as far as topping or bottoming, but also just even watching it was a little hard for me. But that's the beauty of being able to remove yourself from spaces, right? Don't yuck, anyone's yum.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:25:38)
Yeah, absolutely. And knowing that things are consensual, for me, goes a long way. It's like, okay, this is something that pleases this person. So if they're bottoming for something that's pretty intense, it's like, okay, I trust that they're taking care of themselves and they're at choice.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:26:04)
Yeah, yeah. What is it Midori says about BDSM? It's just cops and robbers for adults with better toys, something like that. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:26:05)
Oof.
something like that, yeah. Wow.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:26:18)
There's so much to learn in that world. You can always feed your brain.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:26:21)
Yeah.
I mean, there's like sub kinks, right? Like, yeah, you can get really, really specific, really specific.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:26:28)
Mm-hmm.
And I remember having a client that was figuring some of that out in our space, like what their kinks were. And they felt, they had this initial feeling of like, oh, this complicates my sexuality. And I'm just like, you're so lucky to know what you like. So many people will never figure that out because they won't take the risk, right, to just explore those things. So you're fortunate that you have this, this knowledge. And now like,
Think of it as just fine tuning your dating pool or you don't have to date them. You can get in the community and find people that can give you these experiences. And FYI, people listening on the internet, BDSM and kink doesn't even have to involve sex. Like I did a lot of my own work from my childhood and messaging for my father. I worked through in impact play.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:27:20)
Absolutely.
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:27:32)
and getting beat consciously, and being able to really feel my strength, how much I could take, reclaiming some of the... I remember hearing my father's words of, I'll give you something to cry about, and feeling like this was like legitimate tears, which now I would look at and say all tears are legitimate tears. But at that stage in my healing process, that's what I needed to go through.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:27:35)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:28:03)
Right? It's such a beautiful, like it is a, it's a playground for, for us to, to try things that, because we have communication and consent, we get to, you know, decide what our risk levels are, what our tolerance is, but we get to make shit up and just try it out.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:28:26)
Yeah, yeah, I really like that scene because...
Yeah, there can be some really amazing connections that you can have with people. Like when, yeah, for instance, someone gives up control, for lack of a better word, but when they give themselves over to...
and experience and they have the confidence that I'll be able to like hold them safely and like gently and actually care for them regardless of what the scene looks like, regardless of what's happening. It's like I'm present with them, I'm connected with them and I'm caring for them in a way that feels good to them. Like it can be, yeah, really magical to share those moments with people.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:29:19)
I suggested this to a client the other day. I had a call with a client and her therapist. And it was more of a collaboration, let's brainstorm a little bit here in our work. And I was like, I want to mention that the client had gone through sexual abuse as a child. And one of the things they, and I have permission. She's always like, you can talk about my work as much as you want.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:29:40)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:29:49)
remnant from then of being violently hurt and not understanding, being that this was her father, how he could do that and not hold her afterwards. Probably need to put a trigger warning on the front of this episode. And she brought this up, this memory that had been resurfacing for her recently. And I said, I have an idea.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:30:03)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:30:17)
but I don't even know how to get your all's consent to tell you about it because I don't think you even have a starting point of where I'm about to go. And everybody's like, okay. And I said, I think that having some kind of scene that involves some discomfort, whatever that we could figure out what that is, a little bit of discomfort, whether it's from flogging or whatever, right? And then being able to experience the aftercare.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:30:39)
impact.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:30:46)
would be really reparative. And thankfully, and I didn't know this therapist super well, this is a client I don't work with on the regular, it's kind of because they're on the other side of the country, it's a very sporadic interaction between us. The therapist was like, thank you for bringing that up. You just unlocked a whole bunch of ideas for me. And I'm just like, yay, because you don't know if it's gonna be like, how dare you bring this into our space, or if it's gonna be.
met with curiosity and imagination. And we haven't gone there yet in our work, but I could see it being something that either we do together or I keep helping source resources for her in her area. So she doesn't have to come to California for these things, but there's so much that can be done in that space.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:31:38)
Yeah, yeah. And like so much, I mean, there are people that are really diving into like Kink and BDSM and like healing, like they're looking at that convergence. Yeah, a lot of fascinating work.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:31:56)
Yeah, I'm glad to be connected to that world. I didn't, I started in that world before I knew what I was gonna go for this part of my life as far as career wise. But I don't, and they don't overlap all that often, but they do overlap when they need to. And I think it, when clients figure out that I have that background, they're like, oh, I can talk to Michelle about anything. Right? I always put it like in my, even in my cuddle.
My Cuddlist profile, it says open to alternative lifestyles. It's like, how do you say it in a way that's like, I'm into this world. I float in these spaces. And to have somebody that just, even if it's that we're not playing together in our work, to have a place to talk about it is really helpful. And cuddling and talking about those parts of your life, those two things can go together. They can.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:32:51)
Yeah.
Like, yeah. I mean, I do feel that there are like people in these professions that kind of, you know, operate with sexuality as like this kind of head space thing. And there are people that really embrace it and have integrated it into and normalized it in their lives, right? And yeah, I mean,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:33:18)
Mm-hmm.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:33:21)
I feel like those people are a huge resource because it's like, yeah, I'm actually living it. I've learned a lot about myself and my sexuality and I've integrated it all and like, yeah, I'm a resource. I can like help you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:33:36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Okay, Darren, we hit the one and a half hour mark. And we went through all three levels of both cards. So I'm gonna say, I feel full. I feel full. Yeah. And.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:33:42)
This... Ooh...
Okay, yeah, I feel, yeah, I feel good
about this one. I feel a little rambly, but yeah, I'm sure that the magic of this will come out in time. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:33:59)
No.
It's conversation.
It's not scripted. We don't come into this with a plan. We just get to follow. It's like the intimacy professionals. We don't come in with a plan. We wait to see what shows up. And then we just follow the breadcrumbs. So, Darren, I feel like I know you so much better now. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:34:25)
Yeah,
I know you. Yeah, a whole lot better. Yeah. And then and now I can hear the Michigan accent a little bit clear now. It's like it's like, oh, OK, I hear it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:34:28)
Yeah, this is great.
Oh, I
met a new client. Well, I did an intake for a new client the other night and immediately he goes, oh, I love Midwest people. They're like a certain breed. And I was like, that's me. I'm kind and I smile and nod at people. And sometimes they think that means more than it does. And whatever, it's all good. I have my no.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:34:43)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Yeah, it's just like a little bit of a needle bend towards nice, right? It's like just a little bit nicer. Yeah, like nice. So, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and do that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:35:04)
I don't have to run away from that.
Well, yeah, I'm kind. I hate like the nice Like there's a book,
No More Mr. Nice Guy, that book. I've never read it, but I've referred it to many people.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:35:26)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:35:27)
I'm the girl that's known for her boundaries, yet I'm still considered kind. So that's a good combination.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:35:32)
Absolutely. Yeah. When in doubt, just be kind.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:35:38)
Yeah, and truthful.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:35:40)
Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, one of my mottos I will end it after this one of my mottos is Yeah, I seek ease and comfort but not at the expense of truth.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:35:41)
kind and truthful. A no is good information. Right?
Yes, yes, I am not here to disappoint myself anymore. I will disappoint other people first. Yeah. Okay, Darren, where can people find you? Do you share, like, do you do social media, website, whatever?
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:36:04)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Hmm.
A little bit. I'm not like I just like repost some stuff on IG you could probably just search my name Darren Cyrus and a the underscore Darren underscore experience will come up And my business bear soul wellness you can find on IG and Facebook
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:36:32)
Oh, the Darren experience. All right.
Cool. Well, we'll put them in the notes. And I don't know when this is gonna come out. We recorded on Monday, January 8th, but I have so many of these banked up. I'm considering like, I gotta get caught up on my editing, but I might be able to start putting these out every week instead of every other week. So.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:37:02)
And if for some reason this one doesn't get through quality control and doesn't make the cut, it's okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:37:09)
Oh,
there is no quality control.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:37:14)
Ha ha ha!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:37:15)
This totally makes a cut even with quality control, but there is, I'm just like, it's not a perfectionist space. This is like, uh, voyeuristic watch Michelle connects with colleagues, friends, strangers, I suppose. Like, it's interesting. I put out these cards and you're one of the people that signed up when I posted it on my Facebook. I've got, I've got people, I had, like, you're somebody I know more.
just because of the group that we're in together, then some of the people that have signed up, I'm like, oh, cool, this is gonna be a great way to get to know this person. We've been connected on Facebook or something, but like I haven't actually interacted, so.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:38:00)
Very cool.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:38:02)
Yay for experiments. Yeah.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:38:03)
Yes, well,
yeah, wishing you and sending you like a lot of support, a lot of success, a lot of rest. Yeah, all the things you might need to make it through the day.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:38:12)
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much, Darren. This is a great way to start the day. I look forward to seeing you on our next call together and I'll hopefully see you when I'm in DC later this year.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:38:27)
Yeah, shoot me some deets and holla at your boy.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:38:30)
I will.
I will holler at my boy. All right. Love you. I'll talk to you soon.
Darren Cyrus (he/him) (1:38:34)
Well,
I ever said bye.
