Michael Guichet, LMFT

In this engaging conversation, Michelle Renee and Michael Guichet explore themes of vulnerability, connection, and the complexities of personal and professional boundaries. They discuss the use of card games as tools for deeper conversations, the challenges of surrogate partner therapy, and the importance of self-care and support systems. The dialogue also touches on the struggles of adulting, the need for help in logistics, and the reflections on social energy and introversion. In this engaging conversation, Michael Guichet and Michelle Renee explore the dynamics of relationships, the importance of asking for help, and the intersection of personal and professional identities. They discuss the challenges of being an introvert married to an extrovert, the role of mentorship in personal growth, and the complexities of emotional processing in intimate settings. The conversation also delves into social interactions, boundaries in therapeutic relationships, and the significance of understanding one's internal critic.

Michael Guichet, LMFT, is a sex therapist in Santa Cruz and Monterey, California. You can find him at ⁠https://michaelguichetsextherapy.com/⁠

Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Human Connection Coach and Cuddle Therapist. Michelle's websites are⁠ ⁠https://meetmichellerenee.com⁠⁠⁠ and⁠ ⁠https://humanconnectioncoach.com⁠⁠ and she can be found on social media at⁠ ⁠https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee⁠⁠.

If you’d like to ask a question, for Michelle to answer on an episode, ⁠https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/podcast⁠.

*Note, I'm cutting back on the amount of resources I share as it takes a lot of time to pull them and I'm finding myself not putting out new episodes due to the time requirement. My compromise to myself is to put in less time. Thanks for understanding that is a hard area to cut as someone who prides herself as a "resource maven". I trust you can google and find what you need.

To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers ⁠https://amzn.to/47XJjvm⁠

Rough Transcript:

Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:21)

Welcome back to the intimacy lab. I'm excited today to be joined by somebody I met before I was doing any of this work that I do right now. Like back in my story of how did Michelle get to where she is today is started with, of course, Betty Dodson I talked about on a different podcast. But then it was like, go to sex geek summer camp and you'll find someone doing the work that you want to do. And that didn't really happen for me.

but I met some really great people that keep showing up in my life on a somewhat regular basis. And I will say that Michael, who is joining me today, doesn't show up very often, but when you do, it's kind of cool. So I think I've run into you twice since camp. Like one was at CatalystCon and then one at AASECT And you were so fun to...

Michael Guichet (01:06)

Oh yeah, I've read this.

Exactly.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:12)

sign on to doing these we're not really stranger cards together. So, um, Michael, will you introduce yourself? I don't know how to pronounce your last name or I would have said it.

Michael Guichet (01:21)

Gotcha. I'm Michael Guichet French last name. I'm a sex therapist in California, specifically in Monterey County. I'm a father. I'm married. I'm polyamorous. I have a kid. Yeah, that's pretty much some of the stuff I'm up to. And I'm a teletherapist. This is my office. This is where I'm tuning in from. It's been, yeah, like all the fun times we've bumped into each other, but just like being in the community, like having a great spot.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:51)

Yeah, I think that was the Sex Geek Summer Camp. If you're a sex educator of any sort, like you work in that field, what a great place to really learn a whole lot about how to run a practice for yourself. But also, the people I have met there have carried forward, and I only went the one year in 2015. I know a lot of you go back every year, but I have hung on to a good group of people from that space. So, like,

super cool. Thanks for being part of that group. And it's always good to see a friendly face, like a familiar face in a herd of people that you don't know. And it's like, wait, I know you, I will connect myself to you and you shall be my anchor in a space that I don't know enough people in. And that's kind of what AASECT felt like in some ways, although I'm happy to say I knew quite a few people there. But it was good to connect with you. And I remember getting a message from you, like out of nowhere and you're like,

Michael Guichet (02:25)

Thank you.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:47)

Paul's pretty great. And I was like, this is so random. Like, thanks. I appreciate the words of assurance that my husband who is running around this sex therapy conference is like doing well by me, like showing up and not, you know, you always wonder how your partner's gonna mix in with your people.

Michael Guichet (03:10)

Well, I know I was answering that question that you hadn't asked in that way. Yeah, it might be my own projection of like that. Like we kind of like worry about who are when they're sort of loose in the world. And are they are they OK? Are they doing fine? When you're like, I'm attending a professional conference and I have to be like a whole bunch of things, but they're in attendance to.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:27)

Yeah. And I kept getting messages from people that are like, Oh, I'm hanging out with your husband or um, he would message me and tell me that he was off gallivanting with like colleagues from like therapists from San Diego that I've never introduced him to. And I'm just like, cool, um, have a good time. I hope you have fun. Like this is why you came to San Francisco with me. So, uh, yeah, super.

Michael Guichet (03:46)

Mm-hmm.

Well, that was my fault. That was my fault. I was in that group. I grabbed him. Hey, we're going somewhere! And he's like, sure!

Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:54)

Oh, you were-

Yeah. He'd be like, Yoni Alkin offered to take me around town tomorrow. And I'm like, cool, go hang out with Yoni. Yoni's awesome. You know, so yeah, it's fun to have that crossover. Okay, we're gonna play We're Not Really Strangers, the card game that I have been doing a lot on this very new podcast. There was a story I told you I would tell you when we got on the call. And what was it about? Now I'm

Michael Guichet (04:27)

Well, I said that I have a date deck that I put in my jacket for when I'm out and about with my people. And it could be friends, it could be anything, but you just pull it out and slap down the card, and it just starts a conversation.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:27)

forgetting.

Yes. So I was going to share is I had a client and I shared this on one of the previous episodes, but I had a client that we would only see each other once a month. And so we would have long sessions. And part of what he really liked to do at the beginning of the session was to do these kinds of cards. Cause it was like, he wanted to have a little bit more depth of relating, but it wasn't natural for him just to kind of open up and

talk about something that's a little deeper. And so he would also collect these different decks of cards and I would show up and he'd have my decks with me. And then he'd be like, oh, but I bought this new dating deck. Can we try that deck? And I'm like, yeah, let's do that. So I really love this stuff. It's a fun jumping off points. And like I've said, I feel like a million times, I use these at my wedding reception on all the tables to help people like have a deeper conversation. So when you say, you said off camera that

Some people answer them, everybody answers them to the depth of what they want to answer them. Like there's no force, you have to go really deep. What I found at my wedding reception was that people were over reading the question, like reading into it more than what it was asking. Like instead of it saying, it said, is there a feeling you miss feeling? They read it as what feeling do you miss feeling? And so they started to really expound on that, which really took them into a lot of emotion and.

there was a lot of tears at my wedding reception and probably needed a little like team to come in and help people process their feelings. But you know, it had Michelle written all over it. So it was. I thought it was great.

Michael Guichet (06:08)

It's perfect. Oh one of the days. Oh, I have a like similar in that I was out with my parents, with both sets of my parents, my parents in law and my parents and the deck came out and then my mother-in-law grabbed a card. I like, what do you appreciate about it? And then she went around the whole table, like saying who she, what she appreciated. And she's just bawling by the end of it in the nicest way. So it just inspires people to like, to bring something out because there aren't the individuals who are ready to like share.

And there are people who need questions to start feeling safe in the space.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:40)

Yeah, I just think it's such a gift and it also is something that I think we all need to be mindful that there are people that are just not interested or ready to go down this and that's okay too.

Michael Guichet (06:52)

Oh yeah. Yeah. There's a vulnerability in the public, vulnerability in the strangers. It's bold to even want to step into that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:57)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I will give you the option to veto any of these cards if you're like, I'm opting out. What I like about Esther Perel's deck is in her rules, the way that game can be played, I think she gives multiple options. One of them was like you would have multiple cards. And let's assume you're playing this with three people, not two people or, you know, three or more people.

you would each take one card when it, let's say it was my turn to answer a question, everybody would put forward a card that they wanted to answer, wanted you to answer, but you would also put forward a card that you were willing to answer, right? And you shuffle those all up. Nobody knows if you picked your own card. It doesn't work someone with two people because you know whether they picked your card or not. But I liked the consent aspect of that, of like you get to actually have some control about what you're answering.

Michael Guichet (07:42)

Oh, I didn't know that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:54)

But I think in a lot of these cards, we get to control how deep we want to go with our answers, right? So, I pulled one out.

Michael Guichet (07:59)

No, absolutely. Yeah, I've, are you ready to go? I just wanna highlight that when I offer these to clients, I often suggest like, hey, just try to stay in a constructive place. Not be critical or if it says like, hey, what am I doing wrong in our relationship? Like, whoa, we'll freaking go places. But go right ahead.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:18)

Yeah, I just picked one and I'm like, it's not as good for like over in our space that we're in here. Oh, here's one. I know my anxiety is setting in when.

Michael Guichet (08:32)

Oh, I know where my anxiety is heading in. When I'm a little scattered, it usually my anxiety comes from a place of like too many things in my brain, too many things on the list. And so I might be jumping around and like doing like 5% of something instead of just finishing it and just like procrastinating somewhere else and then, and zipping around. So it's like when I can't sort of stay on topics, I stay, I gotta finish something, I complete something.

to get it off the list. That's when I really know that is kind of bubbling up in me.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:05)

For me, it's similar, but specifically, I will have a hard time finding words. I can't pull the right word up in my brain. It's like I get lost a little bit somewhere in the going from my brain to my mouth. I know what I wanna say, but I can't grab that word and I'll just find myself. I do it on here a lot.

Michael Guichet (09:15)

Oh yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:30)

I'll say like, well, you'll find that in the show notes because I can't seem to pull it up right now. Like, it's like everything kind of shuts down, but I feel like it's a similar kind of response. It's a focus issue or something like that.

Michael Guichet (09:42)

I getcha, yeah, like when the, um, I know that feeling too is, is the, like, fighter flights going and you're just like searching your brain, like going through all the files, where is that word? Uh, try to, try to find a synonym.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:51)

Yeah, I'm like, it's a yeah, I'm like, am I losing it? Like, is this how it starts? Like, it's just an early stage, you know, memory problem? Or is this just stress or you know, what? Like, it's, it's something I think, as I get older, I'll probably question more. But yeah. What or who do you need to set a healthy boundary with and explain?

Michael Guichet (10:00)

Oh.

Um, I guess I think I think I come from a lot of privilege, male and whiteness and all those kind of places that I don't need much. Like I, um, I guess I just need someone who's listening. Like I had that, that the most, because I feel like I, I like the space I'm in and then, and how the world rewards me. I think it's very easy to set a boundary. I don't find that, um, too difficult. Um, as I think, I think I want to want to say that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:40)

Do you notice if there's, do you have like a clear way to know when you need to set a boundary? Like have you figured out like, oh, like for me I get really angry and I'm like, why am I so angry? Oh, there's a boundary that I need to adjust.

Michael Guichet (10:53)

What I'm feeling like I can't be myself. Like I'm editing, I'm censoring, I'm being criticized for who I am. Like that kind of spot when it's, I don't know, I can't find one in my head at the moment. Oh, you're being very spontaneous. Like I can't handle that. Like, oh, it's confusing. I mean, it's not necessarily the solid example. There's just the concept when I feel like, this is who I am. And you're telling me to stop.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:00)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Michael Guichet (11:20)

When appropriately of course.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:21)

Yeah, for me, I feel like I live, again, a very privileged life also, and that I live in this bubble that's so respectful and consent-oriented, and I'm so fortunate. I feel like right now the one I'm working on is within myself, in my work, and realizing as I learn more about myself.

and getting more aware of my yes and my no, I can't ignore them so easily anymore. And so I am like, this is the year 2024 of, I'm gonna do a real full effort. I'm like holding, everyone's holding their breath. What is Michelle gonna say? Um.

help expand people like in surrogate partner therapy, people often call it sex surrogacy, which is really unfortunate in an old term that isn't very representative of what we do anymore. But I'm literally wanting to take the erotic out of surrogate partner therapy for myself. Like I don't want to have that as part of my work. And so it's not that I can't do erotic work. I just that container itself is such a long process.

that by the time we would get to the point of even being able to introduce that to the work, I have held this kind of

I've held this space with the client for so long from a place of teacher and coach and kind of kind of parenty kind of space to switch context and then come in and try to tap into my erotic self is like more than I'm a yes to anymore. And so that's like a big it's weird to be like such a Someone who talks about surrogate partner therapy so much

Michael Guichet (12:45)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:03)

then go, okay, now I need to start talking about it with a little bit more nuance that some people can work, will take it into the erotic part of the work and some people will not. And ultimately the work is not about the erotic part of the work, so it's okay, right? Like, how to message that out to society is my biggest puzzle for 2024. So that's my internal boundaries of like honoring.

Michael Guichet (13:27)

Alright.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:33)

what works for me and what doesn't work for me. So, yeah.

Michael Guichet (13:36)

All right. And how do you, what do you do to, I feel like there's an impulse in me. Like I know, like I used to, you had like an anger or something, something kind of comes up in you. Like is there, like how do you then, how do you then like revisit it? Like instead of just the moment right now, do you think about it later? Do you, like how do you, how do you stick with it?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:55)

I've been mulling this for so long, Michael. Like this is something that the awareness in me has came up. I haven't had a lot of Sergant Partner work since I've moved back to the West Coast. So I've had a lot of time to really sit and think what like, what do I like about my work and what is the harder parts of my work that make me?

get a sense of dread is too strong, but I get less excited about. And it is the contemplation of holding erotic energy with a client for a long period of time. And so I've been I've recognized that.

multiple times over the course of my work and it's just been like not letting myself ignore it. It gets louder and louder and louder so like I keep revisiting it. This is like it's not something that I make like a rash decision about but I keep coming back to it and talking it out with colleagues and other surrogates. Some have made the same decision to change their boundaries in their work and just it's been a process.

Michael Guichet (15:00)

Okay.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:01)

And I feel like I'm in the next phase of the process. Like, did you see my presentation at AASECT? I purposely picked that case because we never got naked. Because I wanted to kind of start that momentum of like people looking at the work from a different lens because it's always looked at as like this, oh, you have sex with clients, right? And that's like so...

Michael Guichet (15:07)

I did, I did attend that, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:29)

can be part of the work, but really that's not the important part of the work. And so it's a lot of re-educating.

Michael Guichet (15:38)

Yeah, absolutely. Because that's what I, when I do point towards surrogate partner work, it is like, hey, like, okay, you want to go to the sex part, but like, there's all of this stuff ahead of it. That is part of like the concept of dating and going slow and getting comfortable and like, and this concept of approaching boundaries and like exploring them and feeling safe in those and gaining data of how you're going to act within those spaces as you like slowly open up.

and as a person to person experience.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:09)

So when that isn't an option as part of the menu, what will that do to referrals? What will it do to clients' impressions of the work? Because I work with primarily cis men, the carrot is different than at that point. But as a professional, I can say, oh, but so many of these things that you're coming to the Sergant partner for, the end goal thing, can be worked on in so many different layers and ways.

that it's like opening our minds to like, okay, you have a hard time receiving pleasure. Maybe that's your hang up, right? Well, I bet you there's so many other ways that you could practice receiving without getting naked and being in a sexual situation. Because if you can't practice it in the other spaces, I think it's probably showing up in multiple places, I guess is where I'm trying to say is that we don't have to get naked.

in being a sexual space to work on that. And for some people, it just won't be a good fit to work with me. But most of the work I do seems to be more centered around helping people regain or learn safety for the first time in their bodies because of abuse and whatnot. So for those people, I think it's enough. I think it's enough.

Michael Guichet (17:24)

I mean, I have this zone where I'm working and you have a little bit more zone before this ex zone of that thing. So even when I'm working with people, I'm like, okay, let's practice like we do the dating apps and the things like that. And then you go out and collect the data. Let's come back here and let's explore like how would you feel weird? So I very much in that talk there, but you get this little extra access, more access for sure to really explore that and even and have themes of giving and receiving and exploring of safety.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, because we still have touch involved, right? Like there's so much there, it's just a tighter container. So yeah, okay. Next question. Okay, finish the sentence. I need help with.

Michael Guichet (17:53)

it.

Oh.

I mean, it's just paperwork, really. Honestly, I really need help with logistics. Like, honestly, in my life. Oh, here.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:15)

right.

I know, I learned about, have you ever heard of the Eisenhower Matrix?

Michael Guichet (18:28)

I don't think I have

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:30)

Okay, so my understanding, please nobody at home quote me, my understanding is that it's this yes for questions of like you have something on your to-do list, right? Is it important?

I'm going to say this and now I'm like, shit, what is it? Is it important? Uh, how like, how soon does it need to be done? Oh, I'm blowing this. This is not.

Michael Guichet (18:53)

We can always look that up.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:55)

I, it's one of those things. Basically the one that I hold onto a lot, could somebody else do this? And is this moving me towards my goals? It's something like, is this, is this, is this something, yeah, is it important? How soon does it need to be done? Can somebody else do it instead of me?

and is it moving me towards my goals? I think it's something like that are the four quadrants. And I really, I'm a control freak. I like to do everything myself. Like my finger is on everything. And the thought of like, can somebody else do this keeps me leading me back to like, when will it be time to get a virtual assistant?

So yeah, like paperwork.

Michael Guichet (19:41)

Yeah, I mean, I have to like, I, it's not that I even want control, it's just I know I can do it. And then that saves me money. I have notes, but when I got my tax man like two years ago, it changed my life because I go, you know, just take care of this thing. That'll take you four minutes. That is going to take me an hour to re research how to like submit this whole little thing that I haven't done for a year. And you'd end this guy does it all the time. And it's like, and it's honestly, he's like, as it's a 50 buck thing for something that's going to take me so long.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:46)

Well, you also have notes.

Michael Guichet (20:10)

to relearn something. So that is often a spot of it.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:12)

So in the Eisenhower matrix, that it was, yes, somebody else could do this for me. And it is a better use of your time because I've done all my own taxes for years. And I do know that feeling of shit. It's quarterly. It's what do I have to do again? Cause I don't, it could be as simple as like probably creating myself a cheat sheet, but I don't do that. So I still do all my own taxes.

Michael Guichet (20:15)

Golf Down.

Yeah, you gotta... Get your... It is, but it's just like a layer of things. Like, oh yeah, the next layer is like I could get an accountant to take care of all those pieces that I'm still doing, kind of spot. But it's often, I think, yeah, that's the thing is, like, I do need help with, like, how to get more spaciousness in my time. Like, how to, like, outsource some of these pieces. And it's really an affordability piece that I think is, like, holding me in.

Is like I could pay somebody to do this but then I'm paying somebody and then that's income. It's all, I don't know.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:08)

Yeah, although I'll say when I was living in Baltimore, I haven't done it yet here in San Diego. But when I was living in Baltimore, we decided to get a housekeeper that would come every two weeks. And it felt like, oh, should we spend the money? I just, I don't know. But boy, it was like the biggest adulting upgrade. It was so worth it.

Michael Guichet (21:31)

It is. It really is.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:32)

And I just dread the process of finding someone again, because like you, I'm a sex geek, and I don't know why I feel like responsible for what people will see in my home. And like, are they gonna be comfortable with a shelf full of penises and vulvas? Like, you know, like people tell me, don't worry about it, they've seen a lot of things. But I haven't done it yet, I keep talking about it, and I just.

Michael Guichet (21:52)

That's it.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:57)

So what I could use, it is, right? I know it just like, I need help with like re-establishing all the professionals in my life in San Diego, like the housekeeper, I need a vet. I need a new gynecologist. I need, you know what I mean? Like I have like some of them done, but I, you get like, it's kind of like as needed. And I'm finally decided that I need to get a dog sitter again, like a daycare.

Michael Guichet (21:57)

It's beautiful when you find the person, let me tell you. And you already know it.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:26)

Like not just like I have a dog sitter that comes, but I noticed that I work from home. This is my cuddle space behind me. And I get dread when I get a client and this is such a sad thing. It's like, it's just a money problem, Michelle. I get a client and I go, oh, what am I gonna do with my dog while they're here?

Well, Paul's working from home in another area of the condo. He gets to keep the dog while I have a client, but my dog really wants to be with me. And so he is like a barker and Paul's got to keep him like settled. And it's a lot on Paul. And so I finally said, I'm going to get a doggy daycare again. Cause I had that on the East coast also. And so to do that, he needs his.

shots are due this month and I want to start him there this month, which means I've got to get him back into the vet, which means I have to find a vet. Is there a concierge for all this? I feel like there probably is. Right?

Michael Guichet (23:26)

You're probably good. That's a virtual assistant. Like that's the piece right there. Oh, yeah, because it is, it's like this layer of all the steps to make it to the end. And it's just, it's just relentless. You kind of keep doing a little at a time.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:34)

Yeah.

In the amount of time I've thought about it, I could have just done it.

Michael Guichet (23:41)

pull the trigger on it, if you can. Ah, but it's a thing.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:45)

It's so the thing. OK, let me see what else we can come up with here. Oh, I did this one last time. Let me pick it up.

Um...

Okay. What is your body telling you today?

Michael Guichet (23:57)

Um, it is It's really relaxed I want to I want to go out and do stuff because I had a Incredible new year's eve And then a very relaxing monday and then like eight hours of clients yesterday And then I accomplished everything but now today I want to like go see some people or like Go find that I want to go find that sort of like social energy again Uh, so, you know, i'm failing right now

Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:20)

Oh.

I'm an introvert. And so just even getting back to work has like drained the shit out of me after having a couple of weeks off over the holidays. I had a client yesterday for three and a half hours and it was intense, mind you, enjoyably intense. Like this client is amazing. Like she's so great to work with. And it was emotionally a lot. And I came home and I walked in the door and I had a meeting scheduled. Do you know Phoenix Mandel?

Michael Guichet (24:53)

I know the name. No, I did bump into them. I know, I did have met them at ASIC right? They were there? Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:54)

Okay.

Yeah, probably. Yeah. I had a I had a call schedule with Phoenix and I walked in and I just like I'm like, I can't my brain is broken. I went and hid in my bedroom and watched TV and had girl dinner, which consisted of a little bit of queso and chips. Some carrot sticks. This is like a progressive meal through the evening as I laid in bed and watched TV.

Michael Guichet (25:22)

Oh, it wasn't all played at once.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:24)

No, no, no. I have a tiny tummy. I had bariatric surgery a couple years ago, so I can't do that. So it was like, I'll have a little bit of queso and some chips. And I was like, hmm, still want something crunchy. How about some carrots? Okay. Well, now I need something sweet. Okay. I have a little bit of this toffee leftover from Disneyland. That's really yummy. That'll be kind of like dessert. Oh, but later then I was like, how about some dry cereal? Like it was this weird little like a progressive dinner of girl dinner.

last night. So I don't have, I think we're getting back to the social need. Yeah, I don't have that. I'm like, I think.

Michael Guichet (25:59)

I get that. It's interesting in the helping profession, I think all the people I consult with, yourself included, in that example, is there's so many introverts within the therapist groups, within the cuddle groups, within all the things. It's all these introverts who are really giving of their soul when they're working. And then at the same, I haven't bumped into many extroverts like myself within this space, where I'm like, oh yeah, work, let's go to work. Okay. And now we're off work. Let's go something to something else.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:16)

Yeah.

I know people like.

Michael Guichet (26:28)

I just spent a bunch of time with people. I want to go spend some more time with people.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:31)

People are always like, you're not an introvert. And I'm like, oh, but I am. I just, I think people think introvert means shy. And like, I'm not shy. I just, I didn't know I was an introvert until I went to, are you familiar with Wasteland Weekend? It's like Mad Max meets Burning Man. Yeah, it's literally like a Mad Max, like cosplay thing. It's...

Michael Guichet (26:51)

Well, it's awesome. I don't know.

Oh, I saw you! I remember forever, just like, you unlocked, I saw your Facebook post about it forever ago. I saw your costumes, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:59)

Oh, yeah, long time ago. Yeah, I went to that for the first time a few years back, and it was there that I realized I was an introvert. I'm like, I'm over 40 years old. How have I not put these pieces together yet? But when you're camping in the desert and it's really hot, you can't go get in your tent in the middle of the day. And I couldn't leave the community shade space. And I was like, I'm losing my mind.

Is this why I was such a bitch of a mother? Because I never got away from my kids. I was like this homeschool mom that couldn't even go pee by myself. Like, no wonder why I was a miserable human being for those years. And so the more I work, the least the less social spoons that I have. Like as my career has built, like before I started getting into this work, I was out doing kink events and I go to every munch and

You know, I might be out four or five nights a week, and now I'm like, I'm lucky if I go to a social thing like once or twice a month. It's just.

Michael Guichet (28:05)

I just, not that I, it's like I almost hate that you, I hear the tone on it of like, ah, I've disappointed in myself, like why? Like I'm trying to embrace that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:13)

No, it's a little bit of, I do go through a mourning process sometimes of like, I'm not the same person I used to be. Like, I just am not. And it's one of those, when will I go, I went through a period of like, when will I go back to like, the slutty version of Michelle that I used to know, right? Like, and then I'm like, well, wait a minute, what if that's just, I'm...

I'm changing every day. I'm changing in what will be next. Who knows? Maybe it will be that kind of more open person, but it's okay if it's not because I'm just not the same person I was then. It's like this process of like reaffirming, no, Michelle, it's okay. You don't have to be, you don't, why would you want to go back? There's so many other cool things you've learned about yourself. It's just part of that process, but there's a lot of grief involved.

And I do have a little bit of wishing I had more social spoons.

Michael Guichet (29:11)

nature

Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:12)

Good catch. Also, I'm married to an extrovert, so I think it would help in some ways if I did have more of that. Yeah, is your wife an extrovert also?

Michael Guichet (29:15)

It's interesting.

Oh, yeah. Nah, she's an introvert. She needs her reading time, she needs her quiet space. She needs to be like, have no demand on her. One of them does, is as energetic as I am, and kind of runs around a bit. But the thing is, I have lots of circles, and so I'm visiting different circles at a time. So that's kind of how I bounce around.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:33)

What about your other partners?

I had a really interesting thing at AASECT. We were looking around and it was a correlation between like sex educators and tech people. So you're on the sex educator side of this. Are any of your partners tech people?

Michael Guichet (30:07)

Uh, no. Not at all.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:08)

Oh, okay, cool. I just was like, it was just an interesting notice that a lot of us are paired up with tech people.

Maybe I see insurance. I don't know.

Michael Guichet (30:16)

Yeah, I mean, my wife does my wife's work is the insurance she's an educator so that's how it works out

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:22)

Okay, cool. Yeah, I think it is nice to have really steady insurance in your life when you're a self-employed person. You got another one in you? Okay. When is the last time you didn't ask for help but really needed it and explain?

Michael Guichet (30:34)

Oh yeah, easy one.

Well, I just have to go with the big story that I can't do it last time but um, I Was I really messed up my back? Rough was that almost a year and a half ago and During that time as my back was like progressively getting worse because I was going I was going to the wrong doctor about it And they were giving me chiropractor when I actually needed PT kind of situation. And so

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:44)

I'm sorry.

Michael Guichet (31:06)

I really I either needed to call off a party or do something like that, but I just I just kept going I just kept going at my pace like I have I've made these obligations. I've made these plans I could have asked for a little bit I could have asked for more support or pulled the plug on it But we already had like as a 50 member 50 person party is this massive thing I still went with it and then and then like a week later my back got even worse and worse and worse Until it got better, but like it was it was it was it was it was about like Like sometimes it's about pausing and stopping

And asking for help along that process would have been awesome. Because I could have paused or stopped if I could, in some ways, have had more help. Because otherwise, in a lot of ways, I keep a lot of my house up. I'm sort of the, not the primary, but I am a lot of the engine of a lot of the pieces of the lives I'm in. So if I'm at a commission, the things don't happen.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:44)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michael Guichet (32:04)

But then I have to let go of the things. But when the things don't happen, then it's just a cycle. So it's a whole thing.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:10)

Yeah, I understand that. I was like I said, I was a homeschool, like stay at home mom for 17 years. So like, I totally understand when like one when that major part of the system isn't functioning, what happens to the entire ecosystem is a lot. I struggle with asking for help. So I'm like, I'm sure I have a million examples of one. Gosh.

This goes back to like childhood shit, right? Like asking for help was not a thing.

Hmm.

It feels like it's just such a normal thing for me that I can't actually pull up an example because I just power through like you. You know what I mean? I should turn it around and be like, when is the time that you actually asked for help in? I think for me, this is like kind of taking it in a much bigger life lesson kind of way.

Michael Guichet (32:48)

I get you, that's the thing.

Alright, alright, well what's that lesson?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:08)

For me, getting into mentoring, like having a mentor in my work was a huge, scary step. Like it helped me a ton in my work. I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for Brian Gibney. But it was so scary to have him know that he was going to give me feedback. Like that help was so scary because I just was so afraid of being criticized.

So, so, so afraid. So in doing that with somebody who was really safe and really kind and gentle, knowing that I told him this was gonna be really hard for me, so reparative. Like the idea of having people look at my work and whatnot does not faze me now, but boy, I was in tears so many times just being so afraid to have like that conversation of like, so what did you think? How did I do? To me, that's asking for help.

because I think my surrogate partner training was kind of shit. It was not any of the regular surrogate partner trainings that are known very well. So I'm not going to drag the place, but I will say it's not probably any of them that people would think of. So you don't have to worry about that people out there in the world. So I needed a help. I needed a lot of help. And Brian was really good about it, but it was so scary to ask for. So scary.

So that's my turnaround on that card. Yeah.

Michael Guichet (34:38)

How do you feel like you're a little more resilient to constructive or full criticism?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:41)

Oh yeah.

Absolutely. And I caught myself the other day. So I'm not diagnosed ADHD. I know you are having fun kind of looking at Paul.

Michael Guichet (34:55)

No, I haven't.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:56)

When you guys met, you had some words of wisdom for me, I think, as I walked out of your parents' house or something like, I remember you said something like, oh, he's just me, like, a few years ago or something like that.

Michael Guichet (35:07)

If you're as good as me, I did say those exact words.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:11)

Yeah, but I'm undiagnosed, but I'm pretty sure I'm somewhere there too. And the other day I'm, I'm neuro spicy in some kind of way. I know in multiple ways for sure. And the other day, um, I was jumping topic to topic and he couldn't, he couldn't follow me and I broke his brain. Like he's like, I have to go lay down. I just don't feel well. And he goes and lays down and comes back and he goes, I realized that.

Michael Guichet (35:16)

Oh, you got the vibe.

There it is.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:41)

It was our conversation like between the car ride and then coming home and you just were like dumping, dumping different stories at me and I couldn't track it. And he's like, my brain just broke. And I really struggled with the, I can't talk to my husband anymore cause I'm breaking his brain. Like internal dialogue was like, I'm bad. And then I was like, nope.

you're not Michelle. This is just how he is processing the information and like this is, it's okay. Like we don't have this struggle on a regular basis. But I had to correct, I had to do a little of my own correction, but it was reading his criticism to me, even though I don't think he meant it as criticism. It was really just like a, wow, you jump around a lot. But then today, same thing was happening. I say it doesn't happen a lot, but here we are two days, not in a row, but he goes, is this what it's like talking to me?

And I'm like, it is. I think I caught it from him. I think that I'm going to blame him for my jumping around as eight years of being in relationship with him and just wash my hands of it. It's not me, too. Yeah. But I do. I'm way better at correcting the internal criticism, like what that criticism means to me. Like that like.

Michael Guichet (36:40)

Mmm.

Gotcha.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:03)

it doesn't hit so hard or it doesn't last as long. Right, like I can correct my negative self-talk around it.

Michael Guichet (37:08)

Yeah.

Yeah, the internal critic is so loud to some of us. I don't think everybody has it, but the kind of place where we're ready to like tear ourselves down, even before anyone else's.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:24)

Have you read, I don't know how much you work in, I know you're a sex therapist, so this might not touch you quite as directly, but there's a book called Complex PTSD, From Surviving to Thriving. Okay.

Michael Guichet (37:34)

I have heard of it. I have not adjusted it.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:38)

They talk about the inner critic and outer critic and how it's an emotional flashback.

And so taking that kind of, oh, I noticed this critical voice. Where is that coming from? What is it tied to in my history? Has been kind of, I consider it fun to play in that space. I know a lot of people would not consider that a fun thing to dive into. Um, talk about weird hobbies is like, Michelle loves to like, work on herself in usually post sex situations where I'm like, let me tell you about this weird thing that's happening.

that I'm hearing right now in my head in this post, you know, in the, in the pillow talk moment, I'll get clarity around interesting stuff. And one of those was like tying some inner critic that came up for me after sex to like some history with like an old boyfriend kind of stuff. It's just to me, I'm like, this is a good time. And I almost have to come with like a warning in my, my elevator.

My safer sex elevator pitch would be like, and how do you feel about emotional processing? How do you feel about tears? Because if the sex is really good, you will find me putting all sorts of things together afterwards.

Michael Guichet (38:50)

And do people enjoy it? Or do you think they'll enjoy the process with you?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:55)

I don't get around enough these days to have a good number on that. My most recent casual partner, it was part of our negotiation and he was like, yeah, I don't do paint. Because I said, hey, how do you feel about tears? And he was like, oh, I don't do paint. And I was like, oh, no, this is about I'm going to process some stuff. I've got some stuff to work through. This is my intention of playing with you. And

I just need you to buy in. I need to have buy-in on this. I'm not just gonna drop this on you." And he was like, oh, well, I've never experienced it, but I'm game. And it worked out really well. He surprisingly really held really great space. And I was able to like...

work, like have some real aha moments. It's a it's the strangest thing. I joke like I'll have like an orgasm and I'll be like, OK, let me tell you a story. I have this thing coming up for me right now. It's it's odd. And if you love if you if you like tears, I'm a total turn on for that. But if you're not into women crying in bed, I'm probably not a good match for the person because I do. I figured out there's so much that I.

Michael Guichet (39:51)

That's okay.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:06)

Like there's some weird like, I think guys call it like post nut clarity. But like I have this like post orgasm space where it's almost like it's just like this interesting download of like awareness that I get in that space. It's wild. It's pretty cool, but it's wild.

Michael Guichet (40:24)

unlocking a memory and you got to get it out right there.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:27)

Yeah, yeah, like I was really struggling with like, again, that grieving process of will I ever be the slut that I used to be kind of thing. And the aha moment that came up for me was, I was like, let me tell you a story. Let me tell you about this one of these early clients I had in surrogate partner therapy, where I think I scared him away, because we were doing like hand sex.

That was the topic of our day that day. And I warned him that I might squirt. And I did, which means yay for everyone, I think, right? But I also work with a lot of really sexually like inexperienced people. And it was like a lot, I think it was a lot for him. And I think that's why I didn't come back. Like I literally got ghosted. And I remember that was when I was very early and I, you know, Brian was mentoring me.

He said, Michelle, like, we have to like show up where, we have to meet our clients where they're at. And I mean, sometimes we have to put kind of our authentic sexuality kind of on the back burner because they're not ready for that. It was a big lesson for me. But in that aha moment, I was like, oh, I realize I have had a really hard time changing hats between personal Michelle and professional Michelle when it comes to sex. And so that was my big download that day.

which was...

good to put together.

Michael Guichet (41:48)

Yeah, because we like, in the ADHD space, people talk about the masks and other and in the therapy space, we talk about like our identities and so forth. But like sometimes there's an element of like what's appropriate for taking care of others or taking care of ourselves or just being authentic. Like what is our mask within our family settings? Like who are we in all these kind of places? And

Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:10)

Yeah.

Michael Guichet (42:11)

And there's a way, I guess maybe in my own personal work of self is that, like how do I integrate those into myself and also, and be authentic and like, I guess, be in charge of making that mask too, because it is in therapy, I'm taking care of others and I could interject all my little things, but no, it's about like just being, it's about the other person's space right there. So it is about, you put it as hats.

and that's important in like understanding those and understanding when we're participating with them.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:45)

Yeah, there's some clients that it is so helpful that I have this kink background and I can like come in and be like, Oh, yeah, do you know about this? Or can I, you know, show you this where other clients is never going to be something that's even ever in their peripheral. And it wouldn't make any sense for me to show up and be like, but actually, let me teach you about, you know, dominance and submission or, you know, it's, it's all these different, all the different parts of us that

could show up in a space that aren't needed in a space. And in that space, I learned a big lesson. But then in the follow-up space, just recently, when I was having that download, that was also really important, too, just to recognize that I was struggling in mask switching or code switching or whatever that would be considered. And I don't know that I have solved it. But.

It's just good for me to like connect the dots. It feels really good. Yeah. Oh, forty six minutes. I think we hit our goal. Thanks for playing with me, Mike. Do you ever go by Mike or just Michael? This is OK.

Michael Guichet (43:45)

Is that here?

Okay.

no problem. I love these things. No, I'm mostly Mike. I just said, yeah, so I'm out in the world. I love these things because like the honestly, I just had a had a talk with my client. I was yesterday. And he was coming to this understanding of, are you a person who talks about yourself or your person who needs a question mark to start sharing? Because there's an there's an individual who might go to like a social setting and go like, Oh, you know, I don't really nice vacation. And like, blah, blah.

And the receiver of that might go, oh yeah, I just got back from Mexico. They might pick it up like, oh, the topic is Mexico. Or sorry, the topic is vacation. And that is like a social kind of bouncing back and forth. And some people need to hear that like, and what about you kind of thing. So these cards offer these opportunities for these question marks to enter the space. And a lot of people do need a question mark in the room as opposed to, oh, we're talking about kids right now. We're talking about sports right now. And just like bantering.

Because that's the subject in the room. Some people need to then be presented the question. It was like repeating myself.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:54)

Yeah, and I don't really like the banter as much. Like I rather have it. I don't want to talk about the weather, although I live in San Diego. I mean, I guess it's pretty easy to fall into the weather conversation. There's not the thing that leaves me going, oh, that was such a juicy conversation. And a lot of times with these kind of prompts, it just allows you to break the monotony of the usual social like.

Michael Guichet (45:05)

Hehe

Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:20)

whatever that, the usual social deck of conversation cards, but the non, the non, the ones you don't carry around with you, just the usual Rolodex of like, so how was your day? Do you really want to hear about it? You know, like those.

Michael Guichet (45:24)

Aye, aye.

That's the problem is with me is that I'm actually that person like how was your day? Oh, how did that make you feel like what's going on with that? I am deeply interested in people so when you when you like highlight that like the There's like an etiquette of social of so small talk I've I often try to break out of that immediately because I want to have intro I want to feel like I've connected with somebody

Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:54)

Okay, that brings up something that happened in a session recently. And I'm really curious what your take is on it. Cause I had a client that was telling me things, right? Like I was really like, when I said, how are you today? And they're like, actually, like, I don't know if I'm supposed to actually expound on this because it might be considered me dumping on you. And I was like, well, no, but I really wanna know, right? So like, there's a narrative that this is dumping.

So when people ask the question of like, how are you? I've seen it looked at from so many different angles of like, am I the type of person that will just say I'm fine? Or am I the type of person that will tell the truth? But then are you gonna judge me for dumping or is this a situation where you wish that I would have shared more deeply of how I really am?

Michael Guichet (46:46)

Yeah, I've been noticing that sort of maybe in the last two, three years, and maybe it's an effect of like social media, TikTok or whatever that is. But there's this word of like trauma dumping when somebody asks a question or like data dumping when you're asked about your things. Like people are trying to put labels on someone being interested or being inquisitive. We don't necessarily, I guess there is no like sort of piece in that etiquette of small talk of.

Like, hey, are you ready to have a conversation? Are you open to like, you know, to be vulnerable? Or are you just like trying to pass, you know, just be cordial and just like, just wave hello at target and keep moving along kind of thing. It's, there's no right answer, I think, is the big part of it, but it is, but to that person's like startup of like, I don't know if you wanna hear this, like that's a consent question. And that's how I'm hearing it. It's like, do you wanna hear that I'm not doing great? Or, kind of thing.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:25)

Yeah.

Yeah. And in my office, of course, I want to hear like that's the tone of how you're walking in for a session. It sets everything right. Like it but in the same different context, being at an event where somebody just walks up to your group and joins your conversation. And the next thing you know, you're hearing about their bad boyfriend and their

you know, horrible mother in there. You know what I mean? Like that's like, actually, nobody actually consented. That's where I immediately go, oh, you're a client. Like I have like, kind of compartmentalized, I look at people and I'm like, okay, are you a peer? Like, when I think about like, ethical non-monogamy, I always say like, are you in my playground? I don't know if that's like

Michael Guichet (48:14)

No, but it is a dud.

That's the first time I'm hearing that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:34)

I always think like, are you in my playground? Because there's a certain like, I don't wanna be in teacher mode all the time. Like it's like, are we in a real like peer to peer or is there some kind of advantage one way or the other? Like, am I, I just use the word playground. But when I hear that kind of like dumping stuff where it's not in...

Michael Guichet (48:52)

Hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:03)

in relation to like a question from someone who you're have a little bit of familiarity with where they're like, how are you? Then I go, oh, you're a client. Like we need to work on boundaries. We need to work on your ability to self-advocate. Like you're giving me all the things in that dump that you've shared with me. I can check off boxes of all the things we should work on. Like that's how my brain goes into is like, oh yeah, we need to work on X, Y, and Z.

If you contact me, it'll be more so because I think you should be a client, not because we're going to go out to coffee. Yeah.

Michael Guichet (49:34)

I hear ya.

I guess there's another piece of this that I've always, I guess I don't think it's not necessarily unique, but I think I'm in the lower percentage of people. But when people talk about like, oh, I was just talking with this person and they started talking about their, I don't know, their assaults, or they're talking about their big subject that they just haven't shared with anybody. I do feel like, oh, thanks for sharing, oh, that's a secret. But at the same time, I'll talk to people and they'll be like, oh, and it drained me, and I'll be, but I don't.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:59)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Guichet (50:05)

Maybe it's therapy training or maybe it's just is this the work but like it doesn't it doesn't go I don't put my I don't put their shoes on I don't go I don't jump into their empathy and then feel what they felt or it doesn't absorb into me Maybe I always imagine that I have this basket in front of me and it's all they're like stuff is put and I just like Throw it on my shoulder. I got my yeah

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:11)

Mm-hmm.

No, I think it's training. I think it's training and I think it's training and like boundary training, right? About how to not take on everybody's stuff. Cause I remember when I first started professional cuddling, I had a session with like an oncologist or something and he goes, how do you not take your work home with you? And I was like, I just don't. Like it's part of, I think that, but I joked that the only thing I remember from my Cuddlist training was that

Michael Guichet (50:31)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:50)

I was told you've got to charge for this because the payment makes it very clear when the start time and the end time of the session is. And I feel like that's the same kind of thing. Even in that hour or two hours that I have with a person, when it's done, I just let it go out the door with the person. I don't find myself thinking about it outside of session very often.

And I had a training one time and the therapist that was running the training gave some advice that if you find yourself laying in bed thinking about a client at night, you're probably out of your scope of practice. And I was like, I don't know if that's always 100% true, but it certainly is something that I'm aware of now so that if I do find myself thinking a lot about a client and worrying about how I'm like, what should what's the proper like route for this person that I might just be out of my scope. And it's just not.

something that I can handle and I need to pass it on to somebody else.

Michael Guichet (51:46)

Yes, it's voice a piece of advice because it is that if you're agonizing over an issue There is that opera there's kind of like do you need to consult? Do you need to is it out of your regime? Do you need to pass it along to somebody else? You need to do you need to seek more advice seek more education on it because if it's if it's rolling around in you There's that piece also on the other side of it that could be like are you still like working on that? Do you not have that answer inside yourself? Do you are you still I don't know having trouble not you know Not bringing taking your mom's

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:09)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Guichet (52:16)

crap into you, like whatever that is, like those kind of little chunks.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:18)

Yeah, I don't work with couples very often. I think a lot of it's because I still have a lot of my own stuff around couples that I get, I don't want to project all over everyone, right? And I have my own baggage. And so I haven't worked through it enough to be to feel good about holding space for couples if they're coming in. Not super healthy, like that's just.

I'm probably not the right place for them in that space anyways. They should be off to see mental health providers. But in those spaces where I have found myself working with couples, one thing that I noticed when I was thinking about them a lot was that I could set different boundaries. Like it was an assumption that I would work with the couple. But what if I just worked with the wife? Right. Oh, well, that feels different. I feel way more settled. OK.

Well, so here's what I can be a yes to, and y'all can decide if that's something that you wanna move forward with. But just knowing that unsettled feeling is like an antenna of like there's something here that isn't quite clear yet, and you're not in your yes yet.

Yeah, so cool. Yeah. Michael, we could keep wandering. I'm sure. I know. We'll do it again. We can just schedule Zoom calls, too, if you want to just catch up. But I don't have to run into you at a conference like every five years. Who knows? Are you going to St. Louis? Will you go to St. Louis for AASECT this year?

Michael Guichet (53:27)

Oh easily. I could vibe with you forever here.

Yeah, it is.

Oh no, I got more social obligations. Like, why is my wife 40th? And stuff like that. So I'm traveling for those kinds of things.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:52)

Okay, I'm like, who am I gonna see in St. Louis? Somebody come to St. Louis. But yeah, I'll be there. Okay, well, Michael, do you wanna share any of your, like, how people could find you if they're like, hey, Michael seems super cool. I should try maybe to work with him or something. I don't know.

Michael Guichet (54:04)

Oh, if you want to find me, oh please. Maybe someone would find me super cool. I am very full. I have so many clients. Yeah, I have a little bit of a wait list, but I can only work with people in California. If someone like absolutely feels like they can see me, I have some out of pocket spots. They have to be in California and you can find me at MikeMFT.com and it'll bounce you to my website. So that's a spot.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:14)

Oh, congratulations.

That was a good catch, that website domain.

Michael Guichet (54:35)

Oh, yeah, like I have my actual website is Michael Gache sex therapy But um a friend forever go taught me a trick of just like get a forwarding HTML And so just you do a little something just a little something still a little sweet something small and then it'll bounce to the bigger thing

Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:47)

Uh-huh. I collect domains. I totally know about the foreword. Yeah.

Michael Guichet (54:51)

Oh, gotcha. Oh, I have. I own Mike the Psych. And I'm really proud of that domain, although it's still, like, more people associate it with either a psychologist, a PhD, or a medium.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:55)

Ahhhh!

Well, I mean, you could pick up a side gig. You could.

Michael Guichet (55:09)

Oh my god. Yeah, it's got to do some reading people's features.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:13)

Yeah, I mean you can just make it up for fun. Do it for Halloween or something. You could just make that your costume or something. I don't know. You've got good costume people in your life. I know your, I know some of your people. Yeah, okay. Well, it was a pleasure. We'll talk again soon.

Michael Guichet (55:18)

Oh yeah.

I do.

See you around.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:33)

See ya.