Janie Michael
Summary
In this conversation, Michelle Renee and Janie Michael discuss their experiences as professional cuddlers and the importance of community in their work. They also play a card game called We're Not Really Strangers, which prompts them to share personal stories and memories. Janie shares her journey as a cuddler in different locations, including Oregon, Seattle, and Germany. Michelle reflects on the changes in her practice and the impact of COVID-19. They both discuss their earliest memories of happiness and the healing process in their relationships with their parents. In this conversation, Michelle and Janie discuss their personal experiences with healing and growth, particularly in relation to their relationships with their parents. They explore the importance of communication, vulnerability, and taking responsibility for one's emotional maturity. They also touch on the power of sexuality and the role it can play in healing and self-discovery. The conversation highlights the need to trust oneself, listen to one's body, and engage in ongoing self-reflection and self-care.
Takeaways
Professional cuddling provides opportunities for deep connection and communication through touch.
Building a supportive community is important for professional cuddlers, as it allows for networking and sharing experiences.
COVID-19 has changed the landscape of professional cuddling, leading to shifts in practice and a greater variety of clients.
Early memories of happiness can shape our understanding of joy and playfulness in adulthood.
Healing and reconciliation in parent-child relationships can bring a sense of wholeness and closure. Effective communication and expressing one's needs is essential for personal growth and healing.
Taking responsibility for one's emotional maturity and acknowledging past mistakes is important for building healthier relationships.
Sexuality can be a powerful tool for healing and self-discovery.
Trusting oneself, listening to one's body, and engaging in ongoing self-reflection and self-care are key to personal growth and well-being.
Janie Michael is a facilitator for personal transformation and a restorative touch and connection provider. She supports people in transforming emotional baggage and undesirable patterns into sensual aliveness, connection, joy, and empowerment. Additionally, she offers coaching for making intimacy, sex, and relating conscious, fulfilling, and evolutionary. She can be found at: https://intimacycoachjanie.com or email at janie@intimacycoachjanie.com
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Intimacy Guide and Surrogate Partner. Michelle's website is https://meetmichellerenee.com and can be found on social media at @meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question, for Michelle to answer on an episode, click here.
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers, click here.
Links from this episode:
To save 10% on Cuddlist Basic Training, use this link: https://cuddlist.podia.com/cuddle-therapy-basic-training?coupon=REFERRAL
36 questions to fall in love: https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/36-questions-to-fall-in-love
Wheel of Consent: https://bettymartin.org/videos/
A Sport and a Pastime: A Novel: Open Road
by James Salter : https://amzn.to/3UCEeot
The Deuce on HBO: https://amzn.to/44xkje8
Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker: https://amzn.to/3UREMqU
Wild Feminine by Tammy Kent: https://amzn.to/3yjfsB0
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:01.483)
Welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. I get to be joined today by Janie Michael, who is somebody that I met through Cuddlist. I think we just figured out like beginning of 2016, like we're both really, really like some of the most like senior or legacy Cuddlist, I guess you would say. At the time, Janie, you were in New York? Was that where you were based?
Janie Michael (00:26.158)
At the time I was in Oregon at the time, that's where I started the Cuddlist practice, in Oregon and Seattle. I had two spots.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:29.682)
Oh, okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:34.411)
Okay, it's all starting to come together a little bit more. Cause I was like, I don't remember seeing you on the New York list back when I was doing operations, I was pretty hands on with who was where and whatever, but you saying Oregon now it like moves you in a slot. And I'm like, Oh yeah, that's, that's totally it. So I met Janie through Cuddlist, which is a lovely community. I think it's really cool how at least
Janie Michael (00:50.094)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00.395)
In my experience, I've been able to be connected with so many practitioners. I know I had kind of an interesting place in the company, so it made me be connected with a lot of people in the company. I don't know how it is to be a Cuddlist that's not in operations or in leadership, or if you don't have a community around you. I don't know. I think we have visions for bringing different regions of Cuddlist together so that they have more
familiarity with each other. I've been really fortunate to have those kinds of, oh, you're here and you're here and I can travel across the country and stop in and meet you here. And like, I've been really fortunate. I don't know if you guys had that in Oregon, because there's quite a few, you've had quite a few cuddlers up there. Maybe not when you were there. Okay.
Janie Michael (01:47.482)
Yeah, I met a few in Seattle when I because I had a I had I practiced both in Ashland, Oregon and in Seattle. And in Seattle, I often attended cuddle parties and there were cuddles there. And I had a good I had good communication. I was in communication with a lot of Cuddlists in Washington. It was nice. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:59.227)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:07.707)
That's super nice. Yeah, when I first started, I was in West Michigan, and I was very alone in that. I think I was the only, I was definitely the only person on Cuddlist in Michigan for quite some time. So that, that I feel like would have been really nice to have a built in community, not to mention like there would have been more people, more
clients that would know about the service when there's more people doing it in your area. I always say it's not a competition thing. It actually really helps to have more practitioners in your area than less because there's more people doing the work of getting the word out. So very cool. Yeah. And then you move to Germany. Yeah. So
Janie Michael (02:32.086)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (02:43.988)
Yeah, absolutely.
I did, yes. I moved to Germany slightly before the pandemic and I actually started Cuddlist here in Germany in Munich. I was the only Cuddlist here, but then the pandemic happened and everything shut down. So I never really got a chance to get it completely rolling.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:52.517)
Uh huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:57.19)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:07.831)
Yeah, yeah, and you're thinking about bringing it back? Is that the...
Janie Michael (03:12.63)
Absolutely, yes. Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:13.967)
That's exciting. That's so exciting. Yeah, Janie and I talked a little bit before we started recording and I'm like, oh, there's a Cuddler in the Netherlands. Let me connect you. Cause this is what I like to do is like connect all the dots. So that is super cool. I'm excited for you. I think cuddling is an interest in a different spot where we are now with COVID versus before COVID.
I think COVID gave the world a look at what isolation really does to people. And I also feel like, I don't know what it was like when you were practicing, but I know for me, my practice has shifted so much and I get such a wide variety of gender representation compared to when I first was doing the work and it was like 100% of my clients were men. And now it is so much more balanced and I am excited.
Janie Michael (03:44.43)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:06.247)
to see if you have like a similar experience as you get back into the work.
Janie Michael (04:11.826)
Yeah, I'm really curious also about practicing here in Germany. In Germany, I think it's really new here. I mean, maybe I'm in the south of Germany. I'm in Bavaria, which is a traditionally very conservative type place. And I know there's people in Berlin, which is north of here. So I'm very curious to see what kind of
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:18.171)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (04:41.766)
inquiries I attract from being out there and sharing more about it. And yeah, it's an adventure.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:44.142)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:51.423)
It is an adventure. I think being a professional cuddler is an adventure on its own. But breaking into new markets is hard and fascinating. And if you like challenges, like I think there's lots of ways and we can brainstorm about this, like off camera of ideas on how you can tap markets from different directions. But I like the challenge of setting up in a in a not super
Janie Michael (04:55.118)
Thanks.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:23.755)
in an area that doesn't have a big understanding of the work, which I think is every area, honestly, unless you like, I think, um, in the very beginning, there was such a deep well of practitioners in like New York City, for example, that it was a, I think, a different area to start as a cuddler. I think there was just a more robust, you have more population. Adam Lippin, the one of the co founders of Cuddlist was in that area, and he was such a marketing like,
Janie Michael (05:29.44)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:53.763)
He just, he worked so hard to market Cuddlist and he happened to be in the city. So it made it easier, I think in that area. So yeah, I'm excited for you.
Janie Michael (06:06.03)
Thanks. Me too. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:07.191)
Yeah. So we're going to we're going to play some We're Not Really Strangers today, which is a card game that gets people into deeper conversation with each other. If you're a regular listener of this podcast, this is something that you've seen I picked up since a few episodes. And I do this with all of my guests. But sometimes we only do one card because we're there to talk about something else. But this was Janie jumped on an opportunity that was on my Facebook page.
I made a joke about all these cards that I bought. I bought like every expansion pack for this set because I love it so much and it was deeply discounted. And I can't resist that. Like if you spend so much, you get free shipping. So like I had to work hard to get to the free shipping amount because everything was like 40% off. And I was like, how do I get to this $100 mark or whatever it was that qualified me for free shipping? So I ended up with all these decks.
I also ended up with a Kleenex box cover that says, cry proudly, like, which is great for my office. I love it. And then I even bought like they have like a mug that says like, you're good for my mental health. And I was like, Yeah, sure. I love a good mug. Anything to get to the like without having to buy like a sweatshirt and all this other merch that they had. So I am overflowing in these cards. And I think one day they should like sponsor this podcast. I keep tagging them in my
Janie Michael (07:10.283)
Awesome. I love it.
Janie Michael (07:32.974)
Great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:33.911)
my shares, but they've not actually done a reach out to me. But if you want your own set, I have a link to Amazon where you could get it and support the show, or you can go to their website and do it directly. Either one, good with me. Yes, I do this with clients sometimes. When they struggle with being vulnerable and opening up and sharing anything of like,
Janie Michael (07:50.69)
leveling.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:04.023)
real depth, I think I've mentioned this probably in every episode, but there was a study, the 36 questions to fall in love was in the New York Times back in 2015. And they showed that couples on first dates that went through these 36 questions, they shared vulnerability with each other and it was really bonding and they had a much more likelihood of having a long-term relationship.
Janie Michael (08:16.494)
Thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:31.299)
And so I think people like to have this like wall, but they're really doing themselves a disservice. And so like learning how to be a little bit more open in taking that risk, which sometimes might feel like, especially if you have trauma from childhood where you were vulnerable and it bit you in the ass because kids are awful or adults sometimes are awful, like relearning how to be open and like share things is a practice.
Janie Michael (08:48.014)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:00.195)
And so sometimes with clients, we end up doing these cards. And yeah, I also used them, I used them in my wedding reception too, on the tables to help people have like deeper conversation at our wedding. And I've talked about, I won't go into it again because people are like, come on, I'm sure you tell the same stories over and over again. So we're gonna start with a level one card, which is the perception level.
Janie Michael (09:04.398)
That's great. That's a great thing.
Janie Michael (09:20.806)
Hahaha!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:29.115)
There's three levels, perception, connection, and reflection. So we're going to start with perception. And we're going to each answer the cards. So the question is, and Janie decided not to hear these ahead of time, so this is all fresh. This is, you're the first person that hasn't had a preview. What subject do you think I thrived in at school? And did I fail any?
Janie Michael (09:29.119)
Okay.
Janie Michael (09:57.634)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:58.464)
So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:03.563)
Okay, I'll go first. I'll let you have a little time to think.
I feel like you were like an art kid. And I'm just making up stories, right? This is like, I think this is the kind of fun of the game is that I don't know Janie that well, even though we've known of each other. This is our first time actually having like a face-to-face conversation. So I'm just going based on, we've been Facebook friends for a lot of years and not like something like I've tracked you and like we've had this kind of fangirly thing or anything like that going on. So I don't, I'm just going off of like the little bits of you. I'm just gonna...
Janie Michael (10:23.085)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:40.003)
I'm saying, I think you thrived in art and I think you probably didn't fail anything but you maybe felt like you failed because you didn't do as well as you would have liked in math, that's just my guess. And you can correct or not correct it, we don't have to like set the record straight if you don't want to, but you're welcome to if you want to.
Janie Michael (11:07.874)
Okay, well, you're right about the math. I never failed math, but I scored low and I just didn't like math. I didn't like it. I liked the kids in my math class. We were all in the, like we were the ones that didn't score well. So we were putting like a, I don't know what they called it at the time, but it was a little less challenging than like.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:12.041)
Oh!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:24.059)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:35.663)
like remedial of some sort. Yeah.
Janie Michael (11:36.966)
remedial something. And I was with the skaters and the rock and roll girls and the kind of like alternative kids. And I loved that, but I didn't like math. So I made it through, but wasn't my favorite thing. And then...
I, my first passion in life was writing. So I actually, I loved literature and I loved English class. I loved learning about grammar and the written word. So I think you're right on, cause it's a bit more on the artistic side. Communication was always my favorite, favorite thing. Communicating through words.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:27.184)
Hmm.
Janie Michael (12:29.538)
communicating through games, no, and body language. And I always loved that. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:32.763)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:37.959)
So you must really love a cuddle session because I'm like thinking how much you get to know someone in a different way because of the touch that's involved. Like, yeah, that's awesome.
Janie Michael (12:48.65)
Yes. Yeah, for me, for me that this exploring the multiple levels that we can communicate with one another as human beings and supporting someone else and opening up to those levels like what can be communicated in a touch, you know, is, is a is such a an amazing thing to explore. And you open
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:15.268)
Yeah.
Janie Michael (13:17.79)
Yeah, there's so many parts of being a pro-cuddler that I love, you know, and this is one of them, like the communion or communication happens aesthetically, it happens verbally, it can happen through touch, it can happen through sight, just looking at one another, the sort of relationship that we're all in already, like to explore, to explore it. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:27.62)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:36.877)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:44.419)
It's the intimacy, right? It's just, before I even started doing the work, I remember I was such a lover of hugs. And I would say, this was before I ever knew about professional cuddling, I would say, there's so much you can learn from someone based on how they hug you, right? About how they feel about you, how they feel in their body, how they like, just, there's so much there. And that was before I even understood the concept of.
they might just not really want to be in that hug or the idea of who is a hug for. I talk a lot about the Wheel of Consent and who is it for. And I look back at pre-cuddly Michelle and realize like there are some people were very clear that they were taking a hug rather than giving a hug. And like these different, like you can, you can pick it all apart. And it's like one of my favorite ways to like.
get to know somebody at a very different, just it's just a different plane completely. Yeah, cool. All right.
Janie Michael (14:44.118)
Totally. And there's, yeah. I could go on and on and on. Ha ha ha.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:49.943)
I know, I know. This is where the fun overlap comes in on this podcast, I think is that especially as I bring more people that are in similar worlds, is how these how our life kind of integrates with our work. And so it shows up in like, especially these questions. Today, it seems to be showing up. There's nothing it doesn't touch. So becomes a low key learn more about professional cuddling, or whatever.
Janie Michael (15:17.367)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:19.407)
we're talking about and cuddling comes up out of my mouth so often that it's probably the number one thing I talk about. Okay, so do you want to answer it for me? What subject do you think I thrived in school and which one do you think I failed, if any?
Janie Michael (15:39.37)
I have a sense that you liked science.
Janie Michael (15:48.342)
and thrives in it. I don't know what I mean you thrived in it like maybe you enjoyed it very much that could be thriving maybe you didn't get good grades but you or you know higher grades but you enjoyed it there's something about it I get a sense of that and
Janie Michael (16:14.606)
I don't know about what you would have failed at or maybe been good at in school.
Music.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:28.377)
Okay. Hey.
Janie Michael (16:29.162)
Ha ha ha!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:31.683)
find this fascinating because I'm like, God, I mean, again, like we don't know each other that well. It's all about like perceptions. It wasn't science per se, but math. I was really good at math. I did well in science classes. I was definitely a STEM, STEM kid. If I if I'd had to be forced to take a music class, yeah, that would have sucked. My mother was very musically inclined and I was very not.
Janie Michael (16:32.63)
haha
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:59.195)
The one that I did actually struggle with, and this is why I said to you, maybe you didn't fail at it, but maybe you didn't do as well as you would have liked to do. I was like a straight-A kid, but one semester in junior high, I think I got a C in social studies or something like that. And that was a big failure. My house was very competitive, and we were all straight-A kids. I suffer from that gifted and talented...
Janie Michael (17:14.172)
Uh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:28.183)
It's great when things are easy, but when they're hard, I don't know how to cope because I never had to learn that when I was in school, like in high school and junior high and stuff. So when I went to college, I thought I was going to be a math major and then I got hard and I failed out at that point. I failed Calc 3. So it's interesting, my thriving and my failure, technically, if you go all the way into college, was math.
Janie Michael (17:49.372)
How?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:58.775)
So, and I'm so glad I didn't pursue that because I wanted to be a math teacher. And I look now and I'm like, God, I would have hated working with kids. I actually don't really enjoy working with kids. It was hard enough. I homeschooled my two boys and yeah, and I was not a great homeschool mom. So I would have been the teacher that was quickly like kicked out for like cussing out my class or something like that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:28.387)
If I didn't learn the social, like the, if I did not learn emotional maturity through my, I think a lot of it was my time working directly with like Madelon Guinazzo when I was working operations with Cuddlist, I got so much one-on-one time with these really emotionally mature people that I got to level up with them. I would have been a fucking nightmare as a teacher. That's the truth.
Thanks for watching!
Janie Michael (19:00.746)
Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like you're learning math and you loved math, right? Or you thrived, maybe for your mind, like whatever, part of you really thrive, but practically teaching it to other human beings, probably to children, is a different math.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:00.759)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:04.243)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know what I was thinking back then.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:14.712)
I thrived.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:27.715)
That's exactly it. Okay, so that was what I ran up against with my kids was that math was so easy for me. I didn't know how to make it easier for people that it wasn't easy for, right? And it just came so naturally. And so of my two kids, one of them was really, had a really hard time with math and I really struggled with him, helping him because I didn't know how to help and I wasn't a teacher and they're like all the,
pluses and minuses of homeschooling, right? When he went to college, he goes, wow, math isn't quite as bad when you have a good teacher. It was like, fair, totally fair. My other one was more like me and naturally did better with math, although we talked about it the other day and he said, I really don't like math. And I'm like, that's totally fair, but you did come to it much more naturally than your brother did. So it's just interesting. It feels like you're either right or left brain kind of people.
Janie Michael (20:04.248)
Ha ha.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:25.867)
I'm very logical and math was logical to me. And so yeah, okay, we could talk like, again, I get on these like, one card could take me through a whole episode. Okay. Level two is connection. Sorry, I'm not sure about that. Oh, Alexa, be quiet. I don't know, my Alexa just thought I was talking to her. I'm like, now we have a third guest on the podcast. I don't know if that picked up on the mic or not. Um, what has been
Janie Michael (20:45.601)
She's not sure about that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:55.519)
your earliest recollection of happiness.
Janie Michael (21:01.195)
Oh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:04.785)
I have to think about this one.
Janie Michael (21:07.274)
My earliest recognition of happiness was being put... There's two things actually. One of them was being put in my, I remember this very young, one of those baby carriers, you know, like the car seat that you take out and you bring in. My father was a grower. He owned a florist and an acre of greenhouses on Long Island in New York. And...
I remember when I was very young being taken into the greenhouse with all the plants and flowers and being put like on the workbench, like right on there. And I can remember like the feeling of it and the smell of it and being around the plants and the colors and the beauty. And that was real happiness for me. The other happiness was playing...
games with all the neighborhood kids. Like in the night, in the summer, in the summer evenings, hiding in the bushes and capturing, you know, um, lightning bugs and running around and joking and having fun. Just, yeah, those are my two earliest memories of happiness.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:11.549)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:17.796)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:23.447)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:29.487)
Yeah, I'm gonna, I can't remember, I had one initially pop up and then I lost it. But now that you said that, this isn't fair to go second because I'm like, oh yeah. So I have an interesting thing about me. I don't see in pictures very much. It's called aphantasia. My memories are stronger in how I felt at the time than what I could remember seeing.
So like, I might get a blurry vision, but I don't see images without really trying hard. And then I never get like a clear image. So that's a weird, weird thing I learned about myself last year. So when you say that I can, when I think of happiness, it takes me back to a similar story. And it's probably, it's probably totally influenced by you telling your, your story. But running around with my friends, we live, we grew up in the country.
And so we would do like just all sorts of weird shit outside. Like we had almost 400 acres of property. We could roam if we wanted to. So like there was these big, we had these big boulders back in our field, straight back from our house that were probably, I don't know how they ended up in a group together, I guess. I don't even know how anybody would move these rocks. They were so, so large.
know, certainly left over from like the glaciers and shit that rolled through Michigan. And they were so big, like the tops of them you could lay a couple people on them, could lay on them and take a nap. Like they were huge and we would play back there. And we had a dump. So this was the country. My grandparents never had trash service. They always burned their garbage or it was composted. Or if it wasn't burnable or compostable, it would end up in this like dump.
back in the field somewhere. And we lived on the same property as my grandparents for my entire childhood. So my mom would go through our stuff every once in a while and throw it out into the dump. So we would go back there. It was pretty close to where these rocks hung out. And we would pull out all of our old toys that we would find back there. And we would create this little house back there. And like this little set of trees was like the bathroom because we would all pee in the woods, like no big deal. Like that was the bathroom area. And then there was like a...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:54.379)
a bundle of like barbed wire that was left over from some fencing or something at one point. And like that was like the kitchen area that just over in that section, of course, you wouldn't get into the barbed wire, but like we'd set up little toys over there for our kitchen and we just play house out there. It was super fun.
Janie Michael (25:11.022)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:12.663)
Yeah, it's a fun memory to have. Yeah, thanks for.
Janie Michael (25:14.782)
Yeah, I can get a sense as you were sharing that I transported myself to this place. Thank you. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:22.151)
Yeah, same. I mean, that's the same thing that happened when you were talking. It's like I was like, oh, yeah, it brought stuff up because I have a hard time pulling. I have a hard time having positive memories, especially if my childhood, for whatever reason, it feels kind of blank until I'm reminded. Like my father passed in the fall of twenty one. I think no. Twenty twenty two. I think we just had the year.
Janie Michael (25:28.301)
Ha ha.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:51.663)
Not a great relationship with him. So I had already been pretty estranged from him. So his passing wasn't like as devastating as like my mother's passing. So I think COVID brought on video funerals, which was really kind of great. Cause I don't know if I would have traveled to Florida for his funeral. So I was able to watch it by video and I really hesitated whether I even wanted to tune in.
which sounds incredibly harsh, but that's kind of where we were in our relationship. And I had a meeting that I wasn't even like, oh, I should reschedule this. I have my father's funeral to attend. I just attended late. And because it was on video, I could start watching it, you know, at any time. And you know how in funerals they like to do like the picture montage kind of stuff? They brought in all these pictures from our childhood and it was so good.
Janie Michael (26:40.405)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:45.903)
Like I needed to have that memory of a time when I found my father to be like a positive person in my life. Like it was fun. Like he got more complicated as he aged or our relationship got more complicated as we both grew or maybe didn't grow or it just, there became more conflict and it didn't feel good to be around him.
And so to have that memory of a time when it did feel good to be around him was really, really like helpful. And I forgot all those kinds of things because it gets really easy to just get stuck on the, the not so great stuff. Yeah.
Janie Michael (27:29.61)
Yeah. I just went through a similar thing with my mother. My mother, for the past year, she's progressing through dementia. And my mother and I had kind of a contentious relationship, lots of anger and emotional abuse, abusive sort of stuff going on when I was younger. And I distanced myself from her for a really long time.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:32.718)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:39.18)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:50.747)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (27:57.93)
Recently, I... Going through pictures in my house, going through all of it, my mom took tons and tons and tons of pictures. There's all these pictures of me and my brothers smiling on the beach. And I just was like, you know, it was like a mixed bag. It was like everything with my mom. And I was able to sort of reclaim the happiness that I did share with her because there was times.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:10.267)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:20.912)
Yeah.
Janie Michael (28:26.934)
where we were really happy together. And I cleaned it all up with her. You know, I apologized for distancing myself and I told her that I was just scared for so long of her anger and her judgment. And we managed to clean it up and we have a great relationship now. We can just be together. And I really got how much my mom loves to joke around and she has a really, really wicked sense of humor.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:29.763)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:33.27)
Oh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:41.273)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (28:55.922)
And I used to always hear it as she was insulting me. You know, my listening was so in like, like filtered that way towards her. And now it's like it's hilarious when I see her. And she's unfortunately now in a nursing home. I moved home for a bit to see if I could care for at home. But it was way too much for her and way too much for me. And I think isolating for her also. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:16.473)
Yeah.
Janie Michael (29:21.47)
It's great when I go visit her, she's just joking and laughing and playing and it's... Yeah. So I get it. It was healing. Yeah, I feel very like, I guess like, whole and complete with my mother for the first time in 25 years, you know? I always wanted to get away from her.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:29.561)
Sounds very healing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:40.359)
That's great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:46.692)
I'm so envy you for that. Mine's really interesting because I don't like to leave things undone because I did lose my mom like 22 years ago, like 21 years ago. So I'm very much like, you never know how long you have. You should always say what you need to say. Like, don't leave things undone. And my father, just such a comp-
Oh, just combative man. That's a good word for him. His father passed like the earlier in the year before he did. And he had sent like an email out to me and my sisters. And he was not talking to my sisters at that point because they were quote unquote, crazy communists. And I was not talking to him because I did that years ago and it was just too much work. And so I just didn't engage with him much. And that kept me from being like, like
cut off, but it also just kept me from having to really engage. So he sends an email one day to me and my sisters and it says, this is a really strange email to be sending to people you're not talking to, but your grandfather's really ill and if you'd like to have any last words with him, he has his cell phone with him at the hospital but he's probably not going to make it through the end of the week. And I was like, reply all. So what do you, how do you think our relationship?
Janie Michael (31:01.427)
Thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:11.803)
goes? Like, do you think it just gets better when you're on your deathbed? Is that what's happened? Is that what you're waiting for with the four, like between the four of us? Because I have two sisters. And I always felt this like, I need to make sure I've done everything so that if something happens to him, I won't feel guilt that I didn't try hard enough. So I said, here's what you need to do first steps to even consider building a relationship with your daughters. You need to get into therapy.
you need to find a therapist who is probably male who will not take your shit." And then I said, even my ex-husband is in therapy and it is greatly changing how he is relating with me and his kids. And I sent that out. My sisters both replied to me privately and said, thank you so much for doing that because it was kind of like, if you want to take some steps, we will we will see those steps, right? His response was,
Good to hear you and Jason are doing well.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:14.204)
That's it.
And I think his last email to me was something like...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:23.475)
your kids aren't responding to me when I tell them I'm going to be in Michigan and would like to visit them. Like, it was just, so I felt complete. And it was like really good to know that I did exactly what I needed to do to feel like I could have, I could just say I did everything that I could do. Yeah, so I'm so like happy for you that you had a different outcome.
Janie Michael (32:43.202)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:51.343)
that you got to heal some of that. And that makes me very happy for you.
Janie Michael (32:57.698)
Thank you so much for the reflection and also I acknowledge you for doing what you had to do to be really complete.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:04.887)
Yeah, yeah, that's what I encourage people. Like you don't have to make nice. You have to know that you communicated your needs, right? And it felt really good to communicate my needs. And that's like, and then he passed and it was really fascinating because this cloak of labels I had on myself, it was like I walked out of that cloak. You know, like I had told myself I was non-confrontational.
Janie Michael (33:08.845)
Mm-mm.
Janie Michael (33:29.199)
Mm, amazing. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:36.491)
I realized, oh, I was non-confrontational because it was too hard to confront my father. He was such a fucking asshole. My voice was never acknowledged or heard, so I just took it as I'm non-confrontational because I don't want to go into that again. And then I had to process that this is the first man I was ever afraid of. How sucky is that?
Like, and I'm not alone in this, right? So many people are probably, if they're listening to this, and I probably have like five listeners, but so many people are at home nodding their head of like, yeah, it really, I don't want to look back and have my kids look at me as one of the first people that they were afraid of. And if that is the case, I want to make that right before I am not here anymore. And so I do this with my kids a lot. I take so much responsibility for my lack of emotional maturity when they were younger.
because that's what I would want my parents to do.
Janie Michael (34:35.578)
Wow. Thank you for doing that. That's incredible.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:40.067)
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. I said they were here visiting the week before Christmas. And there was one of those moments where we were all sitting on my couch. And I just said, like, addressed this thing that was coming up for me of like apology that I don't remember what it was specifically about. But I just let them see me cry. And like, makes me choke up now like.
I wish I could have showed up differently for them and I couldn't at the time. But I'm doing it now. And all these parents, I'm on TikTok, right? And I hear, you know, these parents that are like, I don't understand why my child has cut me off. Well, you probably need to fucking apologize for some shit. And it would go a really long ways, but you can't see, you refuse to reflect on how you could have done better. Right? So.
Janie Michael (35:31.694)
Now, wow. Thank you for this. So thank you for, just thank you for sharing that. I feel very touched by what you just shared and you giving, you being vulnerable with your children. You know, this was my.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:42.726)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:49.655)
Again, it's what I needed my father to do. And honestly, I needed my mother to do it too. We just didn't have quite as of a toxic relationship. It was strained, but we had, you know, time. Never. We never had like the big like come to Jesus talks. She was she was terminal for. At least six months of her last, she had cancer for two years.
I didn't have the emotional maturity to be able to have that conversation with her then. If I was in my who I am now, her last days would have been very different. But I'm OK with that. Yeah.
Janie Michael (36:33.39)
You know, I'm also okay with my, the time I spent like running away from my mom, you know, I was so, I so didn't want to be like her with her anger. And at some point I realized like, hey, if I can't express myself with my mom, if I'm always hiding out, how can I really be self-expressed in this way in the world? It's like this is a woman that's the close was the closest to me for so long. And I need to, I need to show up and share some things with her now.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:39.449)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:43.471)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:58.139)
Yeah.
Yeah, because they're showing up probably in your life anyways, right? It's what I always say with people like, you might think you can avoid this part of your childhood or what have you, but it's gonna it's showing up whether you address it or not. And yeah.
Janie Michael (37:03.812)
Yes.
Janie Michael (37:15.142)
Yep. And I got to say, like, there's, I got to tell her some things that happened that were not, I was like, that was not okay with me. That was, that was wrong, you know? And I'm never gonna let you do that again. And then after I said what I needed to say was like, pooh, like the armor came off. Armor just came off. And, but I couldn't have done that like 15 years ago. I was, no way, I would just work there.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:23.76)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:32.491)
Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:41.095)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. My mom died when I was like 26 or 27. Like, I just didn't have the depth of. I didn't know myself. I did not communicate. I didn't like there was so much I've so much that I've grown through the work that we do with other people, I get to practice on myself. Difficult conversations with clients are.
I don't want to say they even compared to difficult conversations with your mom, but like it's all these little places that I get to practice being brave and being honest and whatnot. From a place of like health and compassion and whatnot. Okay. Card three, 38 minutes in. All right. Reflection.
Janie Michael (38:32.02)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:35.975)
Based on what you know about me, do you have any Netflix recommendations? And let's broaden it beyond Netflix because I don't, I personally don't watch a lot of Netflix. So I want to just say, what's a show that you think I should watch?
Janie Michael (38:54.358)
Michelle, I'm not a big TV person. I don't watch shows.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:59.703)
Okay, what about books, any media? Do you have any media recommendations? Okay, good.
Janie Michael (39:05.642)
I do. I have a book right here. Where is it? Right here. Okay. So I, well, I personally love like, I studied writers in college. So I read a lot of the American, great American writers and stuff. And there's this book I just read because one of the things I love is erotic literature. And...
This book just came to me, someone I just met mailed it to me from California. And it's a book by James Sautier, I think is how you pronounce it, it's called A Sport and a Pastime. And this book was written in the 1960s, it was banned. And it's about the relationship between, it's a heterosexual story, so it's about a relationship between.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:39.651)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:50.552)
Okay.
Janie Michael (40:03.826)
a young man, an American who's in Paris, who's in France, I'm sorry, and a young French girl. And the book is written, I think, I think you would really enjoy it actually. It's, the way it's written is like, it's just. Okay, great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:21.859)
I wrote it down. And this is, I think, this is something I know about myself and I don't know what this means about me. But there's something kind of a love language-y thing where I, if something is presented to me, it's almost like a gift, right? You gave me the gift of this recommendation. I will do it just for that, like to show you I care. I had a client a while back and I would stop and get smoothies after I would leave his house.
And one day I was telling him about it and he goes, oh, my favorite smoothie there is this certain one, which was not the one that I was ordering. And so to that day I went and got that smoothie. So we would have that connection of that shared experience. And so I am going to check out this book because I would like more erotica in my life. I really struggle with...
Well, A, because I have this aphantasia I don't fantasize. I don't see pictures in my head. And so I've always, I haven't had a real strong need or pulled towards erotica or pornography or any of the kind of like sexually stimulating materials. And I want, like, I feel like I want to, but not bad enough. Like...
Janie Michael (41:41.41)
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:41.931)
I should be listening to like audio porn. I love audio. I love sounds. Like there's been times where I've recorded my sex just to listen to the sounds back. It's really hot for me. I'm much more than visually watching something. And so erotica comes up every once in a while with clients and I'm like, have you checked out like literatica and whatnot? And so I feel like this is an invitation for me to actually move forward. And that thing that I keep putting off of like, it's not important enough to me. So.
Janie Michael (42:09.186)
Great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:11.287)
I will report back on that one.
Janie Michael (42:12.67)
Yeah, and this, just remember this book was scandalous, scandalous back in the 60s something. Yeah, 1967. It was banned. It was like not allowed and it's not very long. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:17.575)
Oh, sure. And that's a draw. Yeah, that's a draw for me. Just that's a draw for me just on its own. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:28.203)
Yeah, okay. I'm gonna do that. And now I'm like, okay, do I want to recommend a book to you because you don't do TV? It's so interesting because now I'm like, oh well this ties into The timing of when this book was written I just finished watching a show on HBO called the deuce and Yeah, it was James Franco and Maggie Gyllenhaal and it's
Janie Michael (42:48.31)
the DOOTS!
Janie Michael (42:54.294)
I love Maggie Gyllenhaal
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:56.419)
It's based in the 70s and 80s in New York City around prostitution and the porn industry. And so fascinating to see that kind of bloom through, it starts with prostitution, and then the start of these little pop-up, these shops that would be selling porn that the girls that were the prostitutes didn't know were being filmed.
Janie Michael (43:27.118)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:27.443)
was really, it was kind of some fascinating stuff. And then they were like, and all the pimps that were involved. And it, my understanding is that they, they thought they were going to be filming a show about capitalism, which totally is capitalism through sex work. And how many people had to have their hands in the pot. Right. It's so interesting to think of how
there wasn't very many independent girls back then. Like there was Candy who was played by Maggie Gyllenhaal is like the one woman who holds her independence in her sex work. Like the pimps kept threatening her that she needed protection. Like you need protection, AKA if you don't come on with us, you're going to get hurt. Like we're gonna make sure you get hurt kind of thing. And she ends up turning into a film producer and she works really hard to get more feminist porn.
Janie Michael (44:13.294)
Thanks.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:21.627)
Like she wants something that is even just for women, like heaven forbid there be a storyline or not just cut to the money shot or like it was three seasons. Really fascinating because it's not necessarily a documentary, but it feels like you're watching a documentary about what that world was like at the time and how New York City has changed. I should say.
Yeah, it's changed gentrification, you know, comes into play and just for TV, it was, you know, if you're willing to go into that media, I think it was really good. I just finished it last night. It fucked me up. I'll just warn you, the finale just left me with a lot of feelings. I was a bit dysregulated. Like I was chatting with the guy that recommended the show to me.
Janie Michael (45:10.094)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (45:14.602)
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:20.003)
And I was like, wow, you're right. That ending really fucked me up. I don't know how to go to bed now. Like my husband's not here right now and I feel like I need to cuddle and cry. Like I just want to get all these feelings out of my system. And he was like, don't go to bed like that. You're gonna harbor all those feelings overnight. You need to meditate or take a bath or do something. And so I did do a little bit of meditation and felt better when I went to bed.
Janie Michael (45:43.114)
Thank you for sharing that because one of the issues I have with films and series and things are like I get haunted by images. So if I know that going into it, then I'll make the proper, because I do love like sometimes watching a series, but it's rare for me. I'm very, I get haunted. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:52.07)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:56.897)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:00.856)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:07.229)
I get overtaken with empathy. And these characters were really, like you get very attached to the characters and just the way they wrap the show, like reminded me of all the attachments I had to different, like I just, I'm a big feelings girl. I have a really hard time not like over-empathizing with.
everyone, including characters. So that's just kind of what I was stuck with was all these pent up feelings of loss and whatnot. So yeah, but on the book side, because you're a pro, and I think this is a great book. Yeah, this is a great book for anyone with like, complex PTSD, which I think the way the book opens up, it says that if you were to go through the
Janie Michael (46:35.618)
Oh.
Janie Michael (46:43.849)
I love Fox.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:58.435)
which is like the diagnostic tool for therapists to, because insurance requires diagnosis to get coverage, which is bullshit. If you went through the DSM-5, according to the author, and you pulled out every characteristic that was connected to complex PTSD, which is a traumatic experience over a long period of time, not just the one thing that happened. So a lot of, I say a lot of childhood,
being in, even just being in a home that wasn't nurturing enough, like maybe your basic needs were met, but you weren't emotionally taken care of or whatnot, you end up with these complex issues. If you went through the DSM-5 and you pulled out all the complex PTSD characteristics, you would be left with a pamphlet. So I think so many of us are affected by...
Janie Michael (47:51.522)
Thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:56.559)
these long events in our life, whether it be a unhealthy relationship or our childhood or what have you, whether we are officially Complex PTSD survivors or not, I think we all could benefit from this book. So the book is called Complex PTSD, From Surviving to Thriving from Pete Walker.
Janie Michael (48:22.637)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:24.015)
When I announced I was reading it, I had a bunch of friends and stuff hit me in my inbox saying, oh, I started that book and I couldn't finish it. And I never delved in to find out why, if it was just touching too much stuff. But as someone who works with so many people that probably identify with some of the complex PTSD symptoms, I personally am one of those people, I think it should be a mandatory read for professionals.
It's just, it talks a lot about, and I have another episode that talks about this. It hasn't come out yet, but it talks about reparenting by committee and how sometimes our talk therapist is our first committee member, our first safe enough person. And so I think of myself in my work.
as a touch provider, being another one of those reparenting by committee people. Because I'm a safe, like it's like a laboratory. So I call it like the intimacy lab or the human connection lab is that it's a laboratory to kind of push up against our trauma or our neglect or what have you. And so that was like, I think a really great part of the book. But one thing I forgot to mention in the last time I talked about this book, so I'm like, oh, here's an opportunity to talk about it.
A few of the things I really loved was they talked about when you find yourself having a critic show up in your brain, like you start to hear inner thoughts that are critical of yourself or somebody outside of you, so inner critic or outer critic, you're probably in an emotional flashback. And I started to take that and pay attention that when the critic showed up, oh my gosh.
Janie Michael (50:16.39)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:20.719)
what's happening right now and how is it not related to what's actually happening right now? Like how, where did this feeling come from initially? What's the first memory that I had where I felt that way? And it's been really fascinating to kind of be able to take control that way to say, oh, I keep having this negative thought pops up. Specifically, I'll get juicy here. I had this thought that would come up after sex.
I'd be with my, I'd be, you know, we're cuddled up post, post everybody's, you know, I would say everybody's had their orgasm and we're all just laying in bliss. And then the dark thought would show up that would say one day he's just going to disappear. And I'm like, where the fuck is this coming from? There is no reason in my relationship that thought should be coming up for me. And why does it have to steal this joyous moment? This
lovely space that we're in right now. And I'm very transparent with my partners. So I had read the book and I am like, this must be some kind of emotional flashback. So I said to him out loud, I said, I keep having this thought and this is what it is. And he's like, that's not logical. Like, you know, like, of course that's not the case. And I go, I know that this is not a feeling I'm feeling right now. This is an old feeling. And I'm like, it's from childhood. I can tell.
Janie Michael (51:40.686)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:44.795)
I'm like, that doesn't make any sense because Paul goes, well, it's probably because of your ex-husband. I was like, it's not. It's older than that. It goes back further than that. I sat there for a minute and I'm like, I didn't have any boyfriends just spontaneously break up with me and surprise me in a breakup. Then I went, holy shit, I did. My first boyfriend moved to North Carolina. I was going into high school and he was a senior. It was, you know.
guess pretty typical back then. Now I would be like, if it was my daughter, I'd be like, no. He moved to North Carolina. I got invited to go down there for his prom for whatever reason my parents said I could. I don't know. I was like, I flew by myself to Charlotte, North Carolina. I go to, I spend like, it's supposed to be there for like this long weekend. So I probably came in like on a Thursday or probably a Thursday, left on a Monday or something. So prom is on Saturday
couple of days with him. We go to prom. After prom, in the car, he tells me he has a girlfriend.
Janie Michael (52:48.758)
and oop.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:51.491)
And I was devastated, completely caught off guard. In retrospect, I think he had introduced me to her at his work, like the day before. I felt betrayed and lied to and all this ickiness, right? And I was able to connect those two dots, right? And guess what? Those morbid thoughts that kept showing up, they're not there anymore. Like I finished the loop.
Janie Michael (53:15.861)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (53:19.808)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:20.239)
And so I love this book. Like there's chapters on permission to cry that we need to cry and grieve and wash the tears, right? The tears wash. And it just, it's so empowering for all the things. Like I used to, when I was married, I didn't, I had to pull up a movie to cry. Like my mother was very emotional. I had a big judgment about that. And married to my husband, I don't think he was very good with...
Janie Michael (53:22.574)
awesome.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:47.087)
bigger feelings. And so when I felt a need, like almost like a need to release, like, like guys would say blue balls or something, like, I would have this need to cry and I would have to put on a show like Beaches or something and like lose my shit with a movie. And then I would be good for another however long, right. And then I got divorced. And all of a sudden, all these feelings started to be able to be expressed because I wasn't in the same relationships. And in
and I would go on to Cuddlist calls with the leadership crew. And I would find myself in tears and they would all celebrate me how great it was that I had these tears and I couldn't be happy about it. It was never convenient. I felt like I was weak. Like that was the message from my childhood was like, you could fight with my father as long as you didn't cry. If you cried, argument done.
right? And in, in I've slowly over the how long have I been with Cuddlist eight years, I've been able to start to see my tears as this powerhouse that I'm lucky that I have them that it's like this orgasm for my eyeballs. I cry when I'm happy. I cry when I'm sad. I like there's so many like, Jesus, how many times have I cried after sex? Like it's like, I say that it's like the orgasm comes up through my body.
Janie Michael (54:59.82)
Yes.
Janie Michael (55:03.093)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:15.263)
And eventually, if it's real good, it comes out my eyes. And I had this lover and I think I've told this story on here before, but maybe not the specific one. But when we first negotiated playing together, I had to say, like, are you OK with tears? And he was like, oh, I don't get into the pain thing. And I was like, oh, no, this isn't about pain. I'm going to work through some shit. This is what I do with sex a lot of times as I work through a bunch of shit.
and I will cry. It's just part of my thing. And he was like, I'm curious. And he held space really wonderfully. Like it worked out well. And so one day, a lot of hand sex. Anyways, I have this great orgasm.
he leaves to go to the bathroom, he comes back in, and I'm just in full tears because how it felt in my body was like the orgasm just kept, even though he thought I was done, right? He goes and leaves the room, and I'm just like, whoa, here it comes, here it comes, and I don't fight it anymore. And so he comes in and I'm just bawling. But to me, it was just this continuation of this release of emotion, right? Just like the orgasm is a release of energy.
Janie Michael (56:17.92)
Bye.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:23.163)
Like this was just the energy was just still flowing through me and I just, it comes out in tears and it's an experience. I don't know if everyone would know what to do in that space. I think it's kind of a unique kind of thing, but.
Janie Michael (56:40.834)
Not everyone does know what to do in that space for sure. And I think in orgasm or any type of, when you really get into a space of real regulation or deep relaxation, I'll just call it that, these things start to unwind, you know, these things.
It's a belief of mine, but I feel that the body moves towards, it always moves towards wholeness and completeness. And so things come up and they come up for a reason. And if you train or if you just are become aware of yourself and develop yourself in that way where you have permission to be with what's really there and experience what's there, then those things can lead to some of the greatest.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:20.423)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (57:38.686)
reconciliations, you know, or, I mean, I call them healings. Um, cause I don't know that there's such a good word in English. It's just like this part of you that's coming back for integration. And sex is one of the best ways to reach those places where you can come back into integration with yourself.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:41.016)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:04.139)
Yeah, yeah, I've had like, it just reminds me of like, I read a book, it was Wild Feminine from Tammy Kent, which was all about like pelvic floor therapy, like pelvic floor massage and things like that. And it's pretty woo woo. And I'm not very woo woo. And I found myself going, why are you reading this, Michelle? It got to a point where it was a little too much for me.
But I was like, nope, there's something in this book. I know I'm supposed to read it. It's a learning to trust yourself thing. Like I'm really, I've gotten pretty good at it. And the last chapter was, I don't know, I can't remember the details of it, but I remember I connected the dots. This is why I needed to read it was because it was, it was just something about deep tissue, vaginal massage, and like the way it opens you up, like just to work.
through shit, right? Like there's so much stuff tied to these muscles in our pelvic floor and whatnot. And it like all, that was the reason I needed to read the book because for me, I've always had, well, not always. There was a, I love hand sex, that's my thing. And I'll disclose this very openly. And I like stretching. So for me, and some people will be mortified by this if you're not in the sex positive world.
fisting the first time I had that happen, it felt like the way I reported it was I called another one of my partners at the time and I was like, oh my God, I feel like I have no ability to wall up around people right now. I felt like I was completely vulnerable all the time after that happened for a period of days. It was very unsettling to me because I'd never felt so open. And in
now I look at it and it's such most of my best post-sex healing, the spirally stuff that you're talking about. Like I say, it's like we're onions and we're also on like an apple peeler, right? Like we just have to keep going through layers, but it's this spiral journey, right? And in every, like I say now, like I might need a therapeutic fisting because I have shit to work through. And I know it will show up in that space because I trust it so, so hardcore.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:28.195)
And every one time saying that to Paul, I had this like unsettling feeling and I was like, I think I need a therapeutic fisting and I'm kind of afraid of what's gonna come up in it. So I was kind of putting it off, putting it off. And it was like, I have the orgasm then I have this aha moment, cause it like downloads, it feels like a straight download. And I'm like, oh, I'm having some complicated feelings cause I was headed back to San Diego for the first time after leaving San Diego for Baltimore. I also moved right before COVID and then.
came back more recently. And I had left my friend Sara here, and I was in a, the download was like, I don't know what our relationship is now. And I'm very scared about that. Like that, but I couldn't pinpoint it until like, whatever opens up in me from that deep pelvic massage, that's what I put together was that, that's what fisting is. It's a deep tissue pelvic massage. And, and, ugh, the power of that.
Janie Michael (01:01:25.962)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's also acknowledged for knowing what you need, you know, like, you know, you know, it's like you, it's amazing. Yeah, no.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:28.635)
Power. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:37.027)
It doesn't just happen though, right? Like it's these little steps of like, I brought this up on another episode of like, what do you want right now? And not like in a big picture way, but like really checking with your body and what do I need right now? Like, I'm like, oh, when this is done, I need to go to the bathroom, right? Like I realized that like my coffee is hitting me and I could really use to go pee. Like I, but I can hold it a little bit. We can wrap this up, right? Like,
But these little acknowledgments of like, what do I need right now? You've got to start there and start recognizing what's happening in your body. And then you can keep building and starting to trust yourself.
Janie Michael (01:02:19.302)
Yeah, it's definitely a process. It's definitely like moment to moment to moment to moment. And no. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:24.879)
Yeah, it doesn't just happen. Like you have to work on it. But it's there. I think everybody can access it with enough time and patience and persistence.
Janie Michael (01:02:38.946)
I feel the same way about that. Like it's sort of like a training, like the training you have to just do with yourself or like a relearning, like a reconnection or, no, somehow I think it's there already, but it's like we're, we get trained out of it or whatever, whatever happened. Yeah. Yep.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:41.371)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:44.641)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:50.53)
reconnection.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:58.959)
I think that's what childhood is, right? Like we get trained out of our intuition. Yeah. Well, Janie, I could probably keep going, but we've hit the hour mark. I'm trying to be better at this. And oh, and I forgot I have another call in like eight minutes. So I'm like, oh yeah. And to have that bio break, I have to wrap this up.
Janie Michael (01:03:10.934)
Yeah.
Janie Michael (01:03:16.917)
Okay.
Janie Michael (01:03:22.39)
Yes, you do.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:24.055)
It was so good to reconnect with you. Thank you for jumping on this invitation to come do the cards with me and being open and like being vulnerable. And I really feel like we had some pretty juicy conversation. And this is all unplanned, right? This is just like going with what shows up. And we got to touch on some really cool stuff today.
Janie Michael (01:03:48.826)
Yeah, we did. I appreciate your time and the invitation. It just lined up. I saw the post immediately and I was like, I have to do this. It's just like I knew I wanted.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:54.191)
Yeah...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:59.779)
Yeah, I was surprised at how many people were like volunteering. And I was like, oh shit, I was just kind of joking. But hey, we can do this. I will have content ready to go for quite some time. Because sometimes like, what am I going to do? And I'm like, this might be my thing because I don't I'm realizing. So again, I think 10 episodes in, I really like just having like a free flow conversation with no targeted topic. In
And somebody described it as kind of voyeuristic to listen to and either you're into that or you're not. But like to me, this is like I do this podcast for me. And this like, I love this. It's so like it just fills me up. Like I'm like, oh, I'm going to go through the day just feeling so warm and connected to Janie you know, like it's just great. So thanks for joining me in it. And you just you're a great match for this.
Janie Michael (01:04:48.964)
Yeah!
Janie Michael (01:04:54.449)
Have fun.
Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. I enjoyed our journey together today.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:00.311)
Is there any, yeah, is there any like, because you are getting back into the work, like is there any kind of like, how can people find you if they happen to be over in your neck of the woods? Like, is there somewhere you'd wanna direct them to connect with you?
Janie Michael (01:05:05.335)
Mm-hmm.
Janie Michael (01:05:11.888)
Yes.
Janie Michael (01:05:15.538)
Well, they can email me. That's the first thing. And they can also go, right now my website is down for repairs. It's getting an upgrade. So my website is Inti and my email is Janie at Inti
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:18.295)
Okay? That works.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:39.735)
Okay, well we will get those in the show notes.
Janie Michael (01:05:43.383)
And I travel between here and New York, so I'm available in both places for work. And yeah. Yay!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:48.983)
Awesome. That's fantastic. Well, let's keep connecting. I've got some people I'm going to connect you to offline. And there's my timer saying, go get that bio break. All right. Thank you so much, everybody. Thanks for joining us.
Janie Michael (01:06:05.612)
Okay. All right.
Janie Michael (01:06:10.059)
Okay, bye.
