Meet Michelle’s Michigan Wife

May 24

In this conversation, Michelle Renee and her Michigan wife discuss their friendship and the changes they have experienced. They talk about their history, including how they met and their journey through polyamory. They also discuss the importance of communication and adjusting expectations in relationships. The conversation then shifts to their personal journeys with weight loss and body image, as well as the societal pressure around body count. They share their experiences with weight loss surgery and the impact it has had on their confidence and physical well-being. Overall, the conversation highlights the importance of self-acceptance and finding joy in personal growth.

Takeaways

The importance of open and honest communication in relationships
The need to adjust expectations and labels in relationships to maintain a strong connection
The impact of weight loss surgery on confidence and physical well-being
The societal pressure and judgment around body count and the importance of self-acceptance Bariatric surgery can be a life-changing experience, but it is important to have proper follow-up care and support.
Weight loss medication can be a helpful tool in the weight loss journey, providing a feeling of fullness and reducing food noise.
Weight loss is not always within one's control, and it is important to have empathy and support for those on their weight loss journey.
The journey to weight loss involves both physical and mental changes, and it is important to prioritize mental health and self-care.
Understanding and accepting that weight loss is a lifelong journey can help in setting realistic expectations and maintaining long-term success. It is important to be mentally prepared for surgery and to have a good support system.
Do what is best for you and don't shame yourself for considering weight loss surgery.
Feeling comfortable and free in your body is a significant positive change.
Having supportive and trusting friendships is invaluable.
DIY projects can bring joy and a sense of accomplishment.
Expressing love and appreciation for others strengthens relationships.
Living together with close friends can be a fulfilling and complementary experience.

Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Platonic Intimacy Guide and Surrogate Partner. Michelle's website is⁠ ⁠https://meetmichellerenee.com⁠⁠ and can be found on social media at @meetmichellerenee.

If you’d like to ask a question, for Michelle to answer on an episode, ⁠click here⁠.

To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers, ⁠click here⁠.

The video version of this episode is available on Spotify and on Youtube.

Links from today's episode:

Friendship edition of We’re Not Really Strangers: https://amzn.to/3ywpy1E

Kids editions of We’re Not Really Strangers: https://amzn.to/4avj4O0

Shrill on Hulu or https://amzn.to/4dNJ0qN

First time rock climbing video: https://youtu.be/YPa4af-DMgQ?si=EA-kChLkPA5x3z10

Rough Transcript

Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:55)

Welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. I am so fucking stoked for today because my Michigan wife is here. Like I've brought in lots of people from my life, but not like, um, so far all the, like everybody that's been on the show has been professionals. And you're, I mean you're a professional in your career, but you're not a professional that shows up on podcasts.

Michigan Wife (01:17)

Yeah.

That's very true, never happened before. Me too. I know, it's great.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:23)

I'm so excited. I'm like getting to take your virginity and that makes me so happy. Okay. So, um, I, I call this person. I'm going to not, I'm going to try to protect her identity a little bit.

feels like almost impossible. My Michigan wife is my Michigan wife because, I don't know, I get asked this, I think people think I'm actually married to multiple women because I have a San Diego wife and a Michigan wife and then I have my husband and like I've dabbled in poly and all these things, right? They just assume. So I met my Michigan wife at a party in, I think it was August of 2015.

Michigan Wife (01:39)

Yeah.

I think they do.

to the hero.

Mm-hmm.

eight years.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:07)

I know, long time ago. And I paid you like this compliment about something you were wearing and you were feeling a little insecure in the space. And I was like, you're fine, you're fine. Like I also have a lot of stuff around spaces where I don't know a lot of people. And I went to multiple parties at that person's house. And I found myself a lot of times sitting in the big bean bag that was in the back room.

Michigan Wife (02:23)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:34)

Yeah, so anyways, we met that day. And then in October, I had my 40th birthday and I invited the community at large. Like we were a part of this big group of people. And you showed up with a gift. Like nobody gave me a gift. It was my 40th birthday. I didn't ask for gifts by any means, but you showed up with a gift. And part of that gift was an item that was similar to the one that I complimented you on. And...

Michigan Wife (02:49)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:02)

was just, I don't know, we were friends after that. I can't wait for the cards that we're going to do. We're not really stranger cards. I've already looked at them, but my Michigan wife has not looked at them yet. I know what they are and I'm so excited to do these with you. We did these at my wedding and Michigan wife was there, of course, thankfully.

Michigan Wife (03:05)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

I like games.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:30)

So you know all the stories of the people's reactions to playing these cards at the tables, like there was such a mixed... What was your reaction to the cards at the reception?

Michigan Wife (03:35)

Yes.

I don't remember what the one was at my table, but they were good. I thought it was such a clever idea and they were so thought provoking and they instigated a lot of conversation, which I think is perfect, especially like I didn't know I knew like three people at your wedding. I made fast friends with a lot of people there, but I knew like you and Paul and Sara And I think that was it. Oh, and Kitty, I'd met Kitty before.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:07)

Oh right, because you had met Sara one time. Oh, yep, you had met Kitty.

Michigan Wife (04:12)

Yep, and that was it. Yeah. And I met them once, like when I was there, like two years prior. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:13)

Yeah.

Yeah, briefly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I thought they I didn't plan any of that wedding. And so that was the part that I got to put my voice on. And at first, I thought about giving out books, because that's also very me. But then I looked at the price of doing the book that I wanted to hand out. And I was like, no, no. This was cost me like $20 or something to, to destroy to parse out the game. Anyways, okay.

Michigan Wife (04:27)

Yeah.

Right. No kidding.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:44)

So is there anything else people should know about you? Is there anything else about you that you would like to, how you would like to introduce yourself? Like how do you, do you wanna share any of your identities, like your labels, like anything that people should know?

Michigan Wife (04:57)

Um, I kind of, um, met Michelle through the poly community, um, no longer really in the poly community, but I have, I have this spot where I don't feel like I belong anywhere, um, where I don't go to like the poly community events. I haven't in a long time, but I, a lot of my friend group is there. Um, they're still very kind around West Michigan and invite me to things. And that makes me really happy. Um,

Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:09)

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (05:24)

I can't always make it, but I feel very happy that I'm still invited. Um, otherwise, like I, Michelle is my best friend and I miss her so much. And I am thrilled that you get to live in California and I'm thrilled that I get to come to the UN California. Um, I'm so excited that we're doing this. We should do this, like not even recording it, like on a regular, like a monthly basis. It makes it so fun.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:48)

I know we're great in the fact that we don't require a lot of maintenance. But like us catching up the other day because I couldn't come see you was good and needed and we should do it more often. So yeah.

Michigan Wife (05:53)

Yeah.

Yeah. I like that our relationship, there's no like guilt of like, no matter what, it's like we're both busy. And when we do catch up, it's like kind of a like crash course and like, okay, let me update you on all of the things in my life that have happened since the last time we talked.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:24)

It's like we get little micro talks, like we text little things back and forth, but it's not like the, oh my God, who are you dating? I don't know the information here and I'm your, well, you're my Michigan wife, what am I?

Michigan Wife (06:26)

Yeah.

You're my Michelle. There's no one like you.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:42)

Okay, I'm Michelle and I don't know this, I don't know the story behind who is this person. Yeah. Okay.

Michigan Wife (06:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, so I, yes, I am dating someone. I am someone who identify, I identify as queer, but I'm, I still, I feel like a bad queer where like, I still don't understand the difference between bisexual and pansexual. I keep getting told that. I don't think there's two, but bi to me means two. And there's more than two genders. So I'm like, yeah, but then when you say pansexual, people are like, like cookware and they're.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:04)

I don't think there is a difference. I think it's political.

Yeah.

Well, that reminds me, like, there was a point where we tried to date. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (07:20)

We did try to date. It, we, it was just like, how do we describe how we did it? We dated and then just all of a sudden didn't. We didn't have like-

Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:31)

Well, I tell this story a lot because I think it's a really lovely, I think it's a really lovely example of communicating authentically and adjusting. So like, I remember there was a time where you said something like, would you ever consider dating a woman or you asked if I would consider dating you? I don't remember which. And I was like, I don't know. Like I am totally like bisexual in the sense that I have no issues having sex with women,

Michigan Wife (07:34)

See you!

Yeah.

I don't either.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:01)

dated a woman and it kind of sat in the back burner and we grew our friendship. And then there was a point where I started to say to people if I was going to date a woman it was going to be you. And then I think, I think it came up, we ended up having a conversation around it. And then I guess we officially started dating. But like, I don't, I don't know that anything changed other than my feelings got more complicated because I found myself.

Michigan Wife (08:11)

Yeah. Oh, I didn't know.

I don't know how that happened.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:30)

putting a bunch of expectations because we had changed the label of our relationship and I found myself avoiding you. I remember I was dating Kyle at the time and he was my daddy. I was very submissive in that space, such a foreign concept to me now. It was a needed point. Yes, I was also with Paul. Because I was also playing in the poly world and also don't feel like I know where I fit in now to go to.

Michigan Wife (08:33)

Yeah.

Were you with Paul then? That's what I thought. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:58)

Even ethical non-monogamy in general events, I don't know whether I should show up at them or not because I'm in a monogamous relationship right this minute, but we have a very open feel to us. Clearly, look at the work that I do. My partner is very sharing, and I have intimacy with so many people. My relationships that I have that are platonic in nature would never have.

Michigan Wife (09:05)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:27)

been okay in my first marriage.

Michigan Wife (09:30)

Yeah, I don't think our friendship would have happened. And that wasn't, your divorce wasn't long before we met. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:31)

too intimate.

No. So I was just like, I said to Kyle, we were out to dinner one time and Kyle also lived in your area. So it was kind of an expectation that I would jump, you know, I'd see one person, I go see the other person. And I said something like, I just, I feel like it's an obligation. And he goes, do you need permission not to see her? And I said, yeah. Like, and then I was like, I got to talk to you because this is not good. Like, this is not where I wanted this. I don't want this to go to the point. Like that wasn't the point of...

Michigan Wife (09:53)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:05)

starting today was to not see each other. It was just in my head, it was like my expectations of what I was supposed to do changed.

Michigan Wife (10:15)

I do want to call out to you. I think that, I hope that I didn't put those on you. I think that, I think we both put them on the situation because we changed the label on our relationship. But at the same time, like, I think it's so hard when your sexuality is so flexible that can, I do it, I'm not speaking for you, but I definitely confuse like platonic love with romantic love. And I'm like, I feel so strongly about you, so I must need to date you.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:19)

No!

Michigan Wife (10:44)

Like that must be what this is. Like I do.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:46)

still struggle. Like, because I don't know, I don't feel like, I feel like when you say romantic love, you're really talking about limerence and that new relationship energy and all that. We gave lots of different names for it. And I struggle with that too. Like if I feel really close to you, should I want to date you? Right. And that becomes the question around the poly thing, right? Is like, what constitutes a relationship? And for me, it's a lot about

Michigan Wife (10:52)

Yes, yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:15)

What is my responsibility to the relationship if it is considered a romantic relationship?

Michigan Wife (11:24)

I think, you know, to that relationship I had that ended right before COVID, the like two year one, I, in hindsight, like we are such good friends now that like in hindsight, I'm like, we were never meant to date. We were always meant to be very close friends. And I like, it's so hard to determine that. And that's not something that I thought would be difficult. And it is so difficult. So that's something I'm still learning and working on too is.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:47)

Yeah.

It takes a level of maturity, I think, to do the transition. And that's, I mean, we fucking rocked it. Like it was not a step out of like, there was, I don't know if you had disappointment in it or anything like that. We just rolled right back to how things kind of were before. Just removed the label and all was well. Okay.

Michigan Wife (11:54)

Yes.

Yeah, we did.

There was, I think there was kind of, sorry, to finish that, I think there was some kind of like unspoken, like, yeah, we tried. It didn't work. Whatever. Let's get back to being friends. Yeah. I scored it. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:14)

Yeah.

I think I needed to try. I think I needed to. I think I had a lot of curiosity around it, and around it, around you. Cause it wasn't just a, like, yeah, I hadn't dated women, but like, I really, like, we're gonna get into this. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say anymore cause I know it's gonna come up in a question. Okay. Cause I've pre, pre looked at these and immediately had things.

Michigan Wife (12:27)

Thanks for watching!

Okay, I'm so excited. I love games.

Okay.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:42)

Um, so, so we are playing the friendship edition today. We have not cracked this box open yet. So, um, of all people to break into the set of cards, excuse me, the set of cards with the Michigan wife, the inner circle, right? Like my life is like rings of a tree. And, um, this is one of the very inner rings. Okay.

Michigan Wife (12:57)

I'm so excited. Yes.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:06)

So just like the other boxes, the levels go, Perception is level one, Connection level two, and Reflection is level three. So the first card, and Michigan wife has no clue what these cards are, because I picked them, and she chose to not know what they were ahead of time. You're gonna love this one. This goes to our history so much. How many people do you think I've slept with?

Michigan Wife (13:22)

Yep. OK.

Oh boy.

Hooo

I feel like it's less than me because you were married for a long time. You were married for a long time.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:43)

That's true.

Michigan Wife (13:45)

Hmm, I'm gonna guess 42.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:51)

cool. I have no idea. Yeah, I'm gonna guess if you guessed 42 for me and you think you've slept with more I'll put you at... I don't know. I hate putting a number on this. Okay. I'm not gonna put a number. And this is why I was really loving this card is because I want to tell a story that I've not gotten a chance to tell on this podcast before. Years ago, and so I love podcasts and I was listening to...

Michigan Wife (13:53)

I don't really need either, I must.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:17)

I don't remember the name of the podcast anymore. It's not around anymore, but Ashley Manta, who is the canna sexual, her specialty is cannabis and sexuality. She had a podcast with one of her best friends and I just can't remember the name of it. But there was an episode where they were talking about.

going back and having sex with people they've had sex with before just so their number didn't go up.

Michigan Wife (14:42)

That seems like such a strange concept.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:45)

And I went immediately, like, I think I was, I can, as someone who doesn't have pictures in my mind very much, I am literally driving the S curves in Grand Rapids. This is, I feel like this is where I heard this and I made this declaration. I was never gonna keep count because it's pointless. It doesn't, it doesn't do anything but shame yourself or give people an opportunity to shame you or what have you, so.

Michigan Wife (14:51)

Yeah.

Yes.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:14)

You might be right, I have no fucking clue. I have no idea.

Michigan Wife (15:17)

I think I stopped, not to say that like, I do think there is kind of inherent shame around that. I hope that like my kids don't experience that. And it's, I mean, we can't even get, there's not enough time to get into religious trauma and all of that, but you know, you and I both grew up with that and my kids are not growing up with that. So I hope that that's a big part of the shaming. And I think it, I...

I don't know that I kept track. It's not like I like wrote them in my diary or anything, but like, it was easy to keep track of until I like, probably until I got married and then like, any, then it like stopped, like, I'm like, why am I doing this? This is stupid. Like, why am I keeping track? Why does that number matter? It just allows people to judge you and the people who do care about those things. And so anytime a partner, anyone has asked me, I've

always have follow-up questions of like number one, why are you asking? And number two, does my answer affect how you feel about me? As they like, and if so, then why, then you should, you're someone I shouldn't be dating. There, that's a great answer. I'm going to steal that. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, I could just say plenty enough to know what I'm doing.

Plenty enough to know what I want. Plenty enough to have practiced asking for what I want and being able to tell you what works for me.

Michigan Wife (16:45)

Yes, yes, exactly. That's all that matters. I don't get the, um, the commodity of virginity. I don't understand. Um, well, I do understand it. I don't understand. I gotta say, I don't participate. I completely understand why. I mean, in my own, uh, belief, I believe it's a way for men who are bad at sex to seem, feel like they're amazing because the person they're with hasn't been with many people, so they don't know what they're doing.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:57)

I don't participate in it.

You don't know what you don't know.

Michigan Wife (17:16)

Exactly. So that's, I mean, I see it all the time when I think that's a lot of reason why men go for younger and younger women is, anyway, that's a whole other conversation. I do want to do a disclaimer. Everyone always, I drink these at work all the time and everyone always thinks I'm drinking like a tall boy. It's a liquid death. It's water. That's all.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:24)

Naivety. Yeah.

Okay, I was like, I've never I was like, Oh, are we drinking today? I mean, it's new past noon in your place.

Michigan Wife (17:38)

Right? No, no, that's why I said it. It's one o'clock. Yep.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:44)

But I mean, hey, okay. So that was, I just, I loved the opportunity to like, blow that idea of body count, like fuck you. Yeah, okay, level two.

Michigan Wife (17:55)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:03)

What's an exciting change you've been seeing in yourself, big or small?

Michigan Wife (18:09)

Ooh, this is for me, what I'm seeing. Okay, do you wanna answer first or do you want me to?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:11)

No, we're both going to answer it for ourselves, yes.

I don't care, do you have a preference?

Michigan Wife (18:20)

Um, I can go first exciting change I'm seeing in myself. Um, I've always, I mean, like I've Michelle and I have both been losing weight and for whatever that for us, it's a happy, healthy situation. It's not a, um, not a bad situation, not because of anything bad that's going on in our, our lives or, or mentally it's, it's things that we both wanted. And I've lost 130 pounds in the last two years and.

I, the confidence, like I always considered myself a confident person. And I took a lot of bullshit in relationships. Um, I will say with men mostly, um, with women, I didn't for the most part, but, um, with men, it was a, oh, it's like, I'll just deal with the cheating because they're dealing with me being fat. I'll deal. I'll accept this because.

they're dealing with the fact that I'm fat. It wasn't a conscious thought. It was a hindsight. Now looking back, I mean, like, wow, I put up with a lot. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:31)

Yeah, because you are confident. Like, I'll say this similar thing. Like, I thought I was really confident. And I'll say that I went through weight loss surgery, vertical sleeve, because my body hurts. I was, I thought I was really happy with myself at the time and I wasn't doing it to change my body.

Michigan Wife (19:37)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:00)

image, but more so because everything hurt. But I'm going to be real transparent and say that. I was talking to Michigan Wife about this the other day. I was going through some old video journals and I came across...

Get ready, tears are gonna come.

Michigan Wife (20:21)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:22)

I came across two videos. One was the morning of surgery and one was.

We had a three, I had a three day water prep before surgery or clear liquids prep. And after day one, I made a video where I was like second guessing my choices, getting scared. It's hard for me to watch it now because of.

Michigan Wife (20:46)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:51)

I have judgment about myself now. I see myself differently. It's hard for me to touch into the feeling that I felt then of being okay with myself the way I was. But I do know 100% that I went into it for the purpose of feeling better, like for my joints. Like it just, everything was hard to do. Everything took so much effort and energy. Just the idea of like...

I have to go outside and use the stairs. Like, could I avoid that at all? Like for as long as possible? And I did a lot of things despite my weight, and I too have lost.

Michigan Wife (21:22)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:32)

around 130 pounds also, really getting close to that. And I don't hesitate to run down the stairs for something. It doesn't cost me as many spoons, physical spoons, to do things. And I feel shitty the way that I have looked at those videos. Like, doesn't feel good.

Michigan Wife (21:47)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:00)

to have that judgment about myself, but it's hard to see. It's hard to see, cause I, we've talked about this many times. We don't see ourselves the same way as we do when we see ourselves in a picture or something. We're like, I think I still look like I did in high school. Like, what are you talking about? And it's hard. But the thing is, it's really fascinating and this goes to the changes.

Michigan Wife (22:12)

Yeah. We have like reverse body dysmorphia in a way. Yeah. And then you see a picture and you're like, oof, that hurts. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:29)

I'm gonna make a list. I told you I'm gonna make a bigger blog post or something about this journey because I have not talked much about it. I've never been, never hit it, but I haven't spent a lot of time because it's a delicate topic, right? I am all about health at any size. And to be fair, when I did my consult with my bariatric surgeon, he was like,

Michigan Wife (22:43)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:59)

And I'm like, I know at this time, but it's coming. Like, it's coming and I want to get ahead of it. But also I just, fuck, like you put that much weight on my frame and add sports injuries from high school and all this stuff, like it just fucking hurts. And so I was like this patient that didn't have, I had nothing on my chart. I mean, like I wasn't on any medications.

Michigan Wife (23:17)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:28)

you know, all my lab tests would always come back good. And I thought, what a great opportunity. And I really struggled to get to this. Yes, you and I talked about it. Like we really started looking at it together. And I had, well, when did I, I made the decision.

Michigan Wife (23:49)

It was summer of 2020 that I was like, I'm doing this. And I had a appointment to like schedule surgery in like August. Yeah. I was like, well, it took a long time for me to get there. I mean, we talked about this the other day, but it was like, you know, I had a doctor mentioned to me a couple of years prior and I was always like, I, we're not there yet, like I can lose the weight. And for me as well, I had a breakup, um, in 20

Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:55)

I think you moved forward faster than I did. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (24:17)

2020 right before COVID started. So like, you know, eating my feelings a bit there. You and I have discussed like how before it was nothing ever works. It wasn't for lack of trying. We'd stick to a, I don't even wanna call it a diet. I'd say a lifestyle change and it would start to work. And it wasn't just like, oh, I'm gonna drink this cayenne pepper tea. It was like, I'm making a change in my life. And here's the things that I'm doing to make it happen.

And

For me, I'd do it and I might lose five pounds and then next month I gained 10. Doing the same thing, being just as committed.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:57)

Right. But I think society tells us that we're clearly failing. Right? Right.

Michigan Wife (25:00)

Yes. Yeah. It's like, why don't you just try harder? Like you're clearly like you're cheating on your diet or something is that thing. So then COVID started and I put on more weight. And then in July of 2020, I was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. I did chemo from August. So like my August appointment obviously got canceled because the cancer clearly took precedence and I did chemo from August to December. And

Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:06)

Yeah.

Michigan Wife (25:28)

You know, the diet culture, former eating disorder person was like, chemo, you say, like you mean weight loss, like I'll lose weight. What a happy silver lining.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:41)

Can you, Matt, that, like, looking back at that, like, yeah.

Michigan Wife (25:46)

Plus I'm pissed because I didn't lose weight. So I put on 85 pounds just during chemo. They don't tell you about like how bad steroids hit you and how like the amount of weight, like when I look back to, even from when I like around the time of my last chemo to like right before I had weight loss surgery, I finished chemo in December of 2020 and I had my weight loss surgery in September of 2021.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:47)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (26:14)

Um, just even the difference in my face, like the puffiness, I don't think, I think I probably gained weight between the end of chemo and the start of weight loss surgery. But my face, the puffiness from the, uh, steroids was just insane. But, you know, we had talked about it. You had your surgery in June of 2021, I believe. Yep. So you had already kind of been on that track and like prepping like while I was going through

Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:34)

of 2021.

Michigan Wife (26:42)

chemo, and then I had to get like doctor's permission. The reason that kind of clinched the deal for me is that my cancer is hormone positive, as you know, so like hormones feed my cancer. And my doctor had said, you know, like losing weight, my oncologist said that, you know, losing weight, you know, you store hormones in your fat. Losing weight and getting to a healthy weight is going to be just as pivotal for you as any other lifestyle changes.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michigan Wife (27:11)

to stay cancer-free as long as possible. And my insurance company wanted me to wait 12 months and do that bullshit 15 minute appointment with a nutritionist monthly, and then they would let me have surgery. And I know that I couldn't forgive myself if I waited 12 months and the cancer came back in the meantime. I would always wonder what would have happened if I would have done this sooner. So Michelle went with me.

to Mexico because trying to do it in the US without insurance covering it was gonna be $42,000 and that didn't count the anesthesia. So crazy.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:50)

Which is crazy because we know that there's, mine was 16 in Maryland. Like they, whatever, I don't know what was happening in that situation. They were trying to fuck you over hardcore.

Michigan Wife (27:55)

Mm-hmm.

Apparently what they say is that they give like discounted prices essentially to the insurance companies. So like without insurance paying for it, like paying for any of it. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:12)

I mean, I know that they do that. Oh, I mean, I was an uninsured person back in the day. I think, thank God I have like corporate coverage now. I would just, you know, did not have that in my first marriage. And there were times we didn't have any insurance. And I remember my husband at the time ending up in the ER with kidney stones and different stuff. And I would be like, wait a minute, like you're billing us more than like,

Michigan Wife (28:20)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:39)

you would bill insurances or Medicaid rates, like whatever. And they're like, yeah, like that's what we do. Like there was no fighting it. It was like, you can't afford insurance. So we get to really just rip you a new one. And I tried to like take it to the local news station, but because I think it was, I don't know if it was Bronson or Borges in Kalamazoo, because I think this happens across the board in many communities because they were a major advertiser.

Michigan Wife (28:47)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:08)

news isn't gonna cover that at all. And I was, oh, anyways, I was on one of my soap boxes at the time trying to like make change and giving up because like that's our broken fucking system. So yeah, you move forward and said yes to the surgery and then instead cancer decided to like cock block you. Fucking, you know, turn your life upside down but also mine for all sorts of trauma.

Michigan Wife (29:30)

Yeah, no kidding.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:38)

cancer trauma reasons. I got to the decision. I started water aerobics classes that fall. And I was.

Michigan Wife (29:40)

Yeah.

And that had nothing to do with weight loss, right? You just wanted to move your body or did you want to? Was it for that as well?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:54)

Well, I was always trying to lose weight, right? Like, always trying to lose weight. And I wanted, and I had watched somebody from like TikTok or YouTube or somewhere that was talking about, you've got to find an exercise that you enjoy. And I decided to go try water aerobics. And I loved how I felt in the water because I was an athlete in high school and I could move my body in the water. Like I was...

Michigan Wife (29:58)

chemo, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:23)

Still 18 like it didn't affect my joints and I mean it helped that I was in like the seniors arthritis class And so I was top of my game there, you know Put yourself in a space where you are number one and you know, I felt like a total badass in that class and then I kept moving through some of the harder classes and And I was doing this whole like should I shouldn't I you know now now?

Michigan Wife (30:32)

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:49)

Michigan wife is in a place where she can't move forward in it. And I even came to you and I said, when I made the decision to go ahead, I said, are you going to be upset? Like, I think that's what I love about you is that we showed this in our first like we should date and then, oh, I'm changing my mind. Like, we've been able to have these like very transparent conversations. And. And so, so part of it was.

Michigan Wife (30:55)

Yeah. Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:17)

clearing it with you and making sure that I didn't have like guilt or try to get rid of any guilt. But Paul said to me, and this clinched it for me, he goes, I imagine you just want to feel how you feel in the water.

Michigan Wife (31:32)

Oh, Paul. He's got some gems like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:33)

And he, huh, his other thing.

he said, and I never heard this from anybody. I see how hard you've tried.

Michigan Wife (31:42)

Yeah.

Ugh, the validation. Ugh, oh my gosh, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:49)

Yeah, like, I was witnessed, not just from another like fat friend, right, but like, from my, you know, partner who lives with me and can actually honestly say I've seen you try, like I've seen how hard you try. So I decided to say yes. And I was fortunate that I had good coverage. I only had a three month plan that I had to go through. So I was able to

Michigan Wife (31:55)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:18)

to get it done in June of 2021. But then it was really interesting to turn around. I think I was six weeks post-op when we went to Mexico.

Michigan Wife (32:28)

Yeah, that wasn't well that wasn't it was September 20 September 19th or 20th three months maybe

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:32)

Okay, tell me.

It was it was end of June. So July, August. OK, so closer to three months. Sorry. It wasn't six weeks. No, but it was very fresh. It was a little scary to have. It's kind of like.

Michigan Wife (32:39)

Okay, no. It was still very soon to figure out. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:49)

I watched my sister give birth to her youngest or her oldest six weeks before I had my second. That was not a smart move, right? Because I'd forgotten, right? And so here I had this fresh, I have like personal experience and we end up in Tijuana. And it wasn't a terrible experience. I think you get what you pay for.

Michigan Wife (32:53)

Yeah.

Oof. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:17)

you're here, but there was times, whoo, it was interesting.

Michigan Wife (33:23)

I like, there were times that I was scared and I think it was not necessarily, I think because it was different than what I was used to, but also so many people were like, you're having surgery in Mexico. Like I had all those people in my head at that point. So I, on it, like looking back on it, it's like looking back on childbirth. Like there's just like you're saying, like there's parts that I'm like, I probably have rose colored glasses on in hindsight, but also-

Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:36)

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (33:52)

I think I let all those people get into my head too. There were scary parts mainly because it's different than it is here. Like when that there was a nurse starting my IV and I asked them, would you please put gloves on? That's they had just washed their hands. I'm sure it's not any, you know, less safe than it is here. But that was for my comfort level of like, hey, not only am I in a different country doing this and I'm a little bit scared, but also like I'm immunocompromised. So can we be extra careful?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:55)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And we're literally working off like Google Translator. Like it was interesting and that's kind.

Michigan Wife (34:25)

Yeah, yeah, so.

And I, man, I've forgotten for so long until this moment. I feel like I got shafted that whole trip on like the experience of like, I had the one, we shared a room with another person having surgery and they were so kind and so nice, but I had like no TV in front of me. Like it was just like literally a TV mount, no television. No window. We were the, like one of the only people that had an interior room with no window. So.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:47)

No window. Yeah, we had no window.

Yeah, other people had these floor to ceiling windows.

Michigan Wife (34:58)

Gorgeous. Yeah, the facility itself is gorgeous, but the like The other people's rooms we'd walk by after surgery when I was doing my walks. I'd walk by and be like, oh look at their window Yeah

Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:11)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think you get what you pay for.

Michigan Wife (35:15)

Yeah, I paid the same as everybody else though. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:18)

No, I'm just saying compared to like for people that are like, oh, like, what do I do? I think it's one of these things of like, honestly, I think if you can do it in the US, that would be my suggestion. Right. But I think that if it's something you really want, it's an option. Make sure you bring somebody with you. I just can't imagine doing it without somebody.

Michigan Wife (35:29)

Yeah.

I'd do it again.

I couldn't, and no hate to my mom whatsoever, but I couldn't imagine if my mom would have come because my mom would have been just losing it the entire time. She would have been like, I'm taking you out of here. We're not doing this. And like, she would have had a rough time. You were, again, looking back, you were the only person for that job. Like I needed somebody that I trust, somebody that could see me at my worst. And just, you have such a great...

Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:47)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (36:08)

You do such a great job in a crisis, like all through even like my cancer treatment and stuff, you were such a rock for me, even though I didn't consider it as much as I should have at the time, because I was having cancer. Yeah. Oh, like you, the amount of trauma I'm sure that brought up for you and everything going on, you were still my person.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:21)

you are going through your own shit, sweetie. You don't have to consider me.

Oh, the fucking, do you remember the day that you thought you were gonna get diagnosed with inflammatory breast cancer? Like, I was like, that's not possible. I've already had this in my life once. It's too rare. It's not supposed to happen this way, right? It still sucks that you got diagnosed with stage four, but like the overlaps were a bit, there's still a bit much for me, but we're here, so.

Michigan Wife (36:40)

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Especially initially being diagnosed stage two and being like, oh, I can go into remission. Like I can do this. And my mom went through breast cancer 11 years before my adoptive mom that I'm not related to. Both still had cancer. Yeah, right. So yeah, go like finding out like six weeks later that I was stage four was a shock and yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:05)

Mm-hmm. Welcome to Being a Woman.

Michigan Wife (37:19)

So I think back to our question was like, how do we feel?

Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:24)

What's an exciting change you've been seeing in yourself?

Michigan Wife (37:27)

Yes. So I'd say like, I don't know, like I've heard I've, there's been other people in our like, friends poly community in Grand Rapids that have had some sort of bariatric surgery. And I remember people commenting, there's such a bitch now. Like they're like, they're there. And it's like, I didn't these people who had the bariatric surgery, I didn't know them well. So I didn't know them before. I didn't know, you know, a lot about them.

I thought they were fine, whatever. But like now looking back at that and knowing how I feel now it's, are they a bitch or are they just no longer taking shit from you? Are they, are they an asshole? Are they just standing up for themselves and holding their boundaries? Um, and having the confidence to do that. Like, I think what you're really saying is that you used to be able to walk all over them and now you can't. So.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:15)

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's I think that's the biggest change I've watched with you. And I don't think it's just the surgery. I think it's going through cancer. I think it's like a combination of. Fucking a all the shit you've had to deal with, like. My 20s were hard, your 30s fucking suck. Like, I just want to say that for you, my 30s were not that bad, but like your 30s Michigan wife, I'm trying not to use your first name.

Michigan Wife (38:26)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I was always looking forward to my thirties too. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:52)

Um, yeah, not, not super awesome. And also at the same time, I think. Super awesome in some ways in that I've watched you.

move through the relationship, like in dating and things like that, just really a different version than I saw from you before. And I think it's a combination of all those things. I don't think it's just weight loss and changing your self-confidence. I think it's fair to say you did take a lot of shit that you shouldn't have. I think of like, do you ever watch Shrill on Hulu? The good enough boyfriend.

Michigan Wife (39:10)

Yeah.

Yes, I love Aidy Bryant Yes. I accepted way less than I deserved. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:31)

Yeah.

I did too. And even in this current relationship that I'm literally in right now, he's grown a ton. So like no shade to him as far as like where we are today. But looking back, I say and this really bothers him. I would, Michelle of today would not date Paul of 2015. And I'm glad about that. And he feels bad about that. But

Michigan Wife (39:37)

you know.

Yeah.

The cool thing about it, well, the thing is too, is that relationships only work if you can grow together. That doesn't mean that you grow in the same way or the same pace, but that you can appreciate each other's growth, even if it's not what you expected.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:06)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I'm sure Paul of today wouldn't date Michelle of 2015. 100 100% sure. Like I, well, I'm not 100% sure. I'm just gonna. I think he's getting better at seeing red flags and I had red flags, like for sure. I mean, there's still some in there that people probably like, Hmm, I don't know about that.

Michigan Wife (40:20)

Yeah.

Yeah. Oof. Same.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:39)

I have some baggage, right? And it shows up in relationship. That's where it comes up. So, yeah, before we move to the last question, because I wanna finish this like circle of conversation. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (40:41)

Don't we all?

I want to say one more thing on that too for, for maybe it's for Paul. Um, but I think if we, if we look back and we're not embarrassed about who we were, what are we even doing? Like if you're not embarrassed about who you were five years ago, what's the point? You hopefully you've grown.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:03)

Right, you know what?

Yeah, I don't know if embarrassed, I don't know if embarrassed has to be the right word, but if we're not humble about... Like, if we can't see that we've changed, if we haven't changed...

Michigan Wife (41:11)

Yeah.

Yes, yes, that's a better word.

Yes.

Yeah.

we're supposed to. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:26)

Ooh, like, ick. Not my people. I want to wrap up the weight loss story part because I just haven't ever talked about this and I feel like if this is my it's not a coming out for me, but I certainly haven't had long form conversation around this. I had the surgery in June of twenty one. I lost about. I think I lost like.

60-ish pounds, but some of that was before surgery. And I stalled, like I lost it really slowly, and then I stalled for a while. And it was like a year and a couple months, maybe a year and three months. So I'd stalled for like six months. And I was feeling very much like a failure.

and didn't have great follow-up care. I mean, you went to Mexico, had no follow-up care, and I can't say I had much better. Just FYI. Some of it's on me because like I didn't utilize it. Well, I just, it was interesting because we started during COVID and so I never, I never have gone into their office. Never. Even post-op, they did a video call with me. So I just never felt really engaged with the office. And

Michigan Wife (42:30)

Yeah. But it's, you're not supposed to be the person. Yeah, they're supposed to be.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:53)

Mounjaro hit the market, one of the weight loss drugs. And I was watching.

Michigan Wife (43:00)

Which what was it supposed, was it developed for type of diabetes? Take two.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:05)

Type two, yeah. It hit the market. Some of my online friends, I say with air quotes, they're not real friends, but like, people I was connected with online that had gone through surgery around the same time as me were starting to use this. And I considered like, people had brought up weight loss medication before surgery and I was like, why would you do that? Like, weight loss medication doesn't work. Like, I just.

Michigan Wife (43:26)

Yeah.

because we were thinking of like hydroxy cut type of stuff that we, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:32)

I've been on everything, not everything, but I was like, no, no. So when I saw them start to go on it and they started to have, started to report that they were starting to feel like they did right after surgery. So my takeaway from surgery was, oh my gosh, this is what it feels like to feel full?

I never had that feeling. I always, I was never satiated. I was never satisfied. It was like, I was an empty bucket you could just keep shoveling food into and it never hit like the, so how that happens for people at home, we have hormones in our bodies and in our brains that trigger messages, right? And my messages of full didn't work.

Michigan Wife (43:59)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:25)

And I didn't know how bad they didn't work until I could feel the opposite, right? So what happens is you have inflammation from the surgery. I had vertical sleeve, which means that they took a chunk of my stomach off, but it didn't bypass. I still have all of it, but a chunk of the side of it, which also happens to house a spot where you make your hunger hormones.

Michigan Wife (44:43)

The part that expands, we lost, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:50)

which was an interesting. These are the things you learn in prep for surgery is that it's not just about making your stomach smaller.

Michigan Wife (44:56)

Yeah, that's a misconception I think a lot of people have. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:59)

Yeah, it's really about changing your body chemistry. And so what happens is after surgery, you have a lot of inflammation. So when people say, oh, I stretched my stomach, no, you just, you lost your inflammation. You recovered from surgery. And so like, I think you had a much more aggressive surgery than I did. Absolutely. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (45:20)

Yes, we've talked about that. Yeah. Like it's the theory of like, cause I still can't eat what I'm over two years post-op now and I still can't eat what most people can eat at six months. So like, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:33)

Yeah. You've always had a stronger reaction to being overfull. I've never vomited from that. I know you are very quick to do that. Yeah. So in that stall, what also started to come back was this feeling of hunger and fullness was a little harder to reach the feeling of. And I was getting really bummed about that because that was the big deal. That was the...

Michigan Wife (45:40)

Yep. Too many times. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:01)

biggest part of the surgery for me was like, wow, I get to feel full. I don't think people that don't know what that feels like or they've never not felt it, they don't understand the contrast. So I watched my online acquaintances start to use Mounjaro and I started to listen in on the conversations and it was this talk of like, look, obesity is a chronic disease.

Michigan Wife (46:06)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:28)

We talk about, oh, I don't want to be on medications forever. But if you weren't on, like, if you go on a blood pressure medication, you're expecting to take it forever, whatever, right? Like, we have lots of these, yeah, exactly. Why are we looking at this as something that gets fixed? It's a chronic thing that we're going to keep working on in different ways, probably forever, right?

Michigan Wife (46:40)

I'm on a lifelong cancer med, yeah.

a temporary thing, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:56)

So I went into it with the understanding that this is something that I'm going to start it and I'm not going to, I'm probably going to be on it forever. And I'm okay with that because here's what it did. It did make me feel again, all those same, like I called it for a little while. When I had one client, I didn't want to tell that I had surgery because I didn't want to listen to him give me a bunch of shit about it. Like just didn't want to go there. And I just told him that I had gone to my doctor and was on some.

Michigan Wife (47:19)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:26)

hormone replacement therapy, which guess what? GLP-1s, which is the class of medication that I was on, is a hormone that we already have in our bodies. Like, so I wasn't lying, right? But, and then I, so I've had great success on it. It quiets the hunger thoughts, like,

Michigan Wife (47:42)

Yeah.

You've had amazing success, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:56)

Again, I wonder how like, I don't want to say normal bodied people, but people that don't struggle with weight or people that don't struggle with hunger.

Michigan Wife (48:07)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:10)

if they understand that this food noise is what a lot of us call it, how consuming that is. So for me, the medication has, A, it's kick-started my weight loss again. So I've lost another 60 pounds, right? And it's the mental health component of not having that food noise all the time that is so worth it.

Michigan Wife (48:13)

Yeah.

the freedom of like, I don't think about food all the time. And it's not like, we talked about this the other day, but like I've kind of in the, not in the opposite realm, but like I also was a, I always think of like Tobias Funke from Arrested Development as like a never nude, but we were like a never full type of situation where it's, I never, I wasn't like in your situation where you were hungry all the time. I didn't know what hunger felt like. So.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:42)

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (49:07)

For me, it wasn't like, oh, I'm hungry, I need to eat. Maybe a day and a half of not eating, I would get hunger pains. So for me, it was like, I didn't really understand what hunger was. Hunger to me was, I could go for that. I could do that. I'm craving this. I must be hungry. So I also never got full. And I never had that. You would think not being hungry, you'd get satiated faster or something. But I never felt.

hungry, but I also never felt full. So when people would say, oh, just stop eating when you're not hungry anymore. It's like, what do you mean? I feel like my stomach is empty all the time. So after having surgery and finding out real quick what that first day, it took me like an entire 24 hours to drink a protein shake, like a 12 ounce protein shake. I remember the day after surgery, I was like, violently dry heaving after taking a sip of water, which is not

Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:56)

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (50:04)

ideal and not that less of that one day. And believe me, there's several times that I was like, I made a mistake.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:09)

You also had the acid issues that they weren't addressing. Like we had some extra complications.

Michigan Wife (50:14)

Yes. I was allergic to a omeprazole Yeah. Like it was a, they wouldn't, yes, there were some extra, I'm so happy that I made that decision of like, let's go back to San Diego a day early and stay in like a comfortable hotel there because I, I'm done with this, like, like you said, they didn't, there was no real like follow-up care. The follow-up care was like, if you need to see a doctor in your hometown. Um, and luckily I didn't have any complications. There are plenty of people who do. Um, not just.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:37)

Yeah.

Michigan Wife (50:43)

people who have surgery in Mexico, people have this surgery anywhere. Yeah. But yeah, so now it's like, I'm very aware of what full is. I don't remember if you have this, but like a lot of people who have had some sort of bariatric surgery, when I'm full, I get a runny nose or I get the hiccups. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:45)

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I did the hiccups at first. It lasted for like the first six months or a year where I would get hiccups. I don't, I'd get it once in a while, just randomly, not connected to that. What I did like about the Mexico program, and I took this home with me, I was trying to get away from diet culture, right? Like, I wanna just, you know, like intuitively eat and like,

Michigan Wife (51:12)

I still get them.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:35)

enjoy what I eat, like just get away from all the guilt around shit. And I was coming out of the program in the States with like this, you should not be eating carbs and all. And I was just like...

I, why are we still in this space of like, in Mexico, it was like whole foods, eat whole foods, right? Legumes were not an enemy. Like I love beans, right? Like, and it was, it was just always this feeling that again, I was failing because I was like wanting to eat whole foods.

Michigan Wife (51:52)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Yep, right.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:17)

personally got away from the protein supplements as soon as I could because I could eat, but I know for you it's been a little bit different. But.

Michigan Wife (52:21)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:29)

Where was I going with this? Going back to the medication, I just feel better on it. Like the brain chemistry stuff, the hormone stuff. So I wanna talk about it from a place of like, this is a lifelong thing for me.

Michigan Wife (52:32)

Oh, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:51)

Um...

You don't know what you don't know, which I say 100 million times a day, it feels like. And what I know now is that my weight was not all in my control.

Michigan Wife (52:57)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:08)

I think that maybe in the beginning, so I grew up pretty, like, I had no weight issues. I was probably on the higher end for my age group and stuff. I think I have a really dense body or something, but I was like looking at pictures and stuff. I was always very fit and I was, you know, a three season athlete and all that kind of stuff.

But I think, you know, I got with my would turn into my husband. In between, like really wanting to dissociate from my body because I was not advocating for myself, especially in sex and had this kind of, I think, unconscious, maybe I can make myself an attractive thing going on. But also we just we ate really shitty food. Like we didn't hesitate. Like the amount of fast food we ate.

Michigan Wife (53:55)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:05)

I think I just broke my body. I think I got to where, so then I got pregnant when I was, so I remember gaining a little weight in college, like freshman 15 was a little bit more than that for me. Ben & Jerry's was offered in the cafeteria as like a buffet and I'd never had Ben & Jerry's before and Pizza Hut, Stuff Crest came out my freshman year of college and I got a Discover card. Like then I can, I can track things, right?

Michigan Wife (54:18)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:35)

But I think if it would have been just a temporary situation, I could have backtracked that, got myself in check, recovered from that. But I got pregnant like in 1997, I got pregnant. And I gained 50 pounds with my first born and then I never really lost that weight. And then I gained another over. By the time I had surgery.

Michigan Wife (54:45)

but it became a lifestyle in a way. Yeah.

Christmas.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:05)

I was up to 326 and I got pregnant with Westin at 208. So you can see where that went. So I think I spent so many years stressing or taxing my system that I do think that I broke the metabolic part of my body, right? Like I think that the way that I've responded to Mounjaro or tirzepatide has been

Michigan Wife (55:18)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:32)

makes me think that there was some insulin resistance going on, even though my A1C never showed that. Right? Like I do think, because I have responded really well to it and it's been a nice steady, slow, like really slow weight loss. It's not like this is all, I'm a year and a few months since I started taking. So I gave it to myself for my birthday. For my birthday in 2022, I...

I called up my doctor and I said, I'm freaking out because my stall has now ended and I'm starting to creep up in weight And I'm scared and I feel like a failure. And they didn't treat me like a failure. They said, oh, would you like to try some medications? And I was like, oh my God, thank you for not making me feel like shit because I was making myself feel like shit. And they were so easy to like, just be like, yeah, like.

Michigan Wife (56:11)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:28)

And now I get it. I feel bad I had all these judgments about weightloss medication doesn't work. And then when I started to learn about this specific group of medications and like, oh, well these actually show, these make sense to me. Science-wise, they make sense to me. It's not like we're just putting stimulants in our body and hoping that takes care of everything. So, and here's an interesting side effect.

Michigan Wife (56:45)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:55)

They're seeing a lot of people on these stop craving alcohol. So for addiction recovery, it's really interesting. It has a cost to it. I think that it's really fucked with my entire pleasure center. Sex is a little different for me. I have to work a little harder. It's not on the top of my mind.

Michigan Wife (57:03)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:24)

And I think that plays a role in it. And I'm not willing to stop it just to have, like I still have sex and I just, I know this about myself. And I like the food noise being quiet is the biggest quality of life change for me with that medication. So when I hear people say like, you're cheating, you're short-cutting this.

Michigan Wife (57:28)

Yeah.

Yes.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:50)

whatever. You know what's really fucking hard is trying, trying and not getting anywhere because our bodies are working against us.

Michigan Wife (57:56)

People don't understand.

People who either don't struggle to lose weight, I remember a partner of mine who we were getting ready to go on a vacation, and he just stopped taking a second entire plate of food, and he lost like 30 pounds in like the two and a half months before we went on vacation. I never took a second plate of food to begin with, but during this time,

I cut way back on carbs because that's the only way I've ever been able to lose weight. I was going to the gym every single morning. I was doing all these things that were extra to, I lost five pounds and that's like severely restricting. Yes, it's just water. I sweated it out. That was it. So people who are like that, who can make a small change and see results, don't understand what it's like to stay committed for months.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:41)

Mm-hmm. And it's just water. It's just water. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (58:56)

and not see a single result. Or like it feels like pennies when they've, you know, hit a jackpot type of thing. And it's kind of like, is the cost that this is taking, is the dedication and the mental load of changing this lifestyle, it's not equating to a result. And it's so hard to keep going when that doesn't happen. So it's, I understand why from that point of view, they feel like it's cheating.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:16)

Yeah.

Yeah. I will say it's fucking a lot easier.

Michigan Wife (59:28)

It is a million times.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:30)

Because it really, I mean, it's like self torture to keep doing something that's not making any progress towards where you want to feel the change, right? Instead, it's just this self-defeating, it's like, people want you to suffer. They want you to suffer if you're too, this takes me back to the whole Barbie scene, right? Where you can't be, you can't wanna be thin.

Michigan Wife (59:55)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:01)

But, and if you're too thin, like there's this, we're constantly in this thing. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (1:00:03)

good monologue. Yeah, there's nothing. It's the same thing. I won't name who says this to me, but this person used to be always really critical of what I ate beforehand. Like, do you really need to eat that? Do you really is that the best choice for you? And it's like, fuck, I can't even live, you know. And then now that I've lost all this weight, it's, well, you don't eat enough. Now you need to now you need to make sure to eat this or

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:17)

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (1:00:30)

Why don't you just try to have a few more bites? Like, fuck, I can't win. Just let me, I am. What's that? Yeah. Oh, like that. Yeah. When you say, like, when you talk about the intuitive eating, I feel like I do that now without trying. I didn't set out to be like, I'm gonna eat intuitively now. I feel like I eat like the people who don't try to lose weight. I have health in mind. I make healthy choices, but my day doesn't revolve around what I eat. It doesn't revolve around.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:34)

Am I a child? Am I a child? Like you just gotta eat a little bit more.

Michigan Wife (1:01:01)

Oh, well, I have this many points left in the week for those of us that have done Weight Watchers or, you know, this is how many macros I need to do today. You just live.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:04)

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. I don't crave meat. Like, I'm much more apt to pick like the tofu option or like I have to be mindful that I still need protein. But like it's not because like you'll never hear me say God I crave a steak and I used to be like, oh man, I would love a steak and I'm like, I'll take two bites of it and be like, okay, that's enough.

Michigan Wife (1:01:14)

same.

Yeah.

there.

Yeah. I know I can. Like, I've thought about I lean more towards vegan options these days. I could put in the work of being vegan. And I know there's a lot more options now than there used to be. But I also, like, I don't want, I'm not ready yet to put myself back into being very concerned about what I'm eating. So I just use the vegan option if I want to. Yes, for sure.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:53)

Yeah. I mean, I get it if you're vegan for ethics and whatever, but like, I don't want to be in constant consideration of what I'm eating. What a fucking talk about what is freedom. Like I. It it's. It's been huge changes. Small changes that feel huge, like we could it.

Michigan Wife (1:02:04)

Yeah.

the relief.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:22)

runs to the gamut and I'm really grateful that I do feel like I was in a really good mental space to have the surgery. I haven't really struggled. People told me to expect to have a lot of real emotional struggles through this and I haven't. I've had some stuff but I don't think it's connected per se but I always have stuff. But it's...

Michigan Wife (1:02:46)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:52)

It's the best decision that I made. And it's kind of like, you'll remember this. Years back, I had this like big coming out post on Facebook. I like to just like, cause I don't give a shit, I'm not beholden to anybody. Like there's no, I don't have to worry about my parents thing. I don't have to worry about, like I don't work for anybody. I've always been self-employed. And I had this post on Facebook that was like, hey, guess what people?

You know what? Bankruptcy is not a big fucking deal. Society makes you feel really fucking scared about it. But guess what? Companies use it all the time. Why the fuck aren't you? Right. And I had been through it. And and I want to say the same thing about this. Like. Do whatever you want. If you if you are if you're if you are actively trying to lose weight all the time, maybe consider this if you're not and you don't want to.

Michigan Wife (1:03:21)

Yeah, I remember that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:03:48)

then don't. It doesn't matter. But don't fucking be self-shaming that you might consider going down this road.

Michigan Wife (1:03:48)

Don't do it. Yeah.

Yeah.

The, and there's no, for the people who are, have heard a million times that they need to lose weight from their doctors. I mean, some of the, you know, skinniest people I know have heard from their doctors like, oh, I think I have tennis elbow. Like, no, you need to lose weight. Like, we've all heard it, but there's nothing, if you're comfortable with where you are, that's all that matters. I was not comfortable. I felt like the person,

that I am now that was trapped in a body that was limiting me. And I wasn't happy with that. It wasn't that I thought I was ugly or that I was trying to, you know, conform to a standard. It was like, I'm uncomfortable in my body. I want to be comfortable. I'm so comfortable now. And I, I'm still overweight for my height. Like, I'm sure the doctor would immediately still tell me it'll to lose more weight. I don't feel the need to.

Like I'm very comfortable where I am. And that's fine with me.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:57)

Yeah, I was still getting naked at beaches when I was 300 pounds. Like that part of my what's that?

Michigan Wife (1:05:01)

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't do that now. I said I wouldn't do that now, but I've never been a person who's, I like clothing. I'm never a comfortable being naked person, but it has nothing to do with, like I don't, alone in my bed, I don't sleep naked. Like that's not a thing for me, but that has more to do with, I'm just, that has nothing to do with who's seeing me. That's my own comfortability. I feel more comfortable in clothes.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:13)

So for everybody, yeah.

Yeah, I think for me, it's like those things haven't changed. Right. I've been doing those things anyways. What's changed for me is my my. How I say yes to things is different. So like here in San Diego, we have a nude beach called Blacks Beach that is world famous and it's a bitch to get to. I've tried every way to get to that beach.

Michigan Wife (1:05:31)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:53)

because it's hard, it's really hard on your body. It's definitely not ADA accessible. And I used to, Sara, Sara would practically live down there. And so she would be like, it's my birthday will you come down to the beach. And I'd say yes, cause it's your birthday. Like it was like a once a year, cause I loved it down there, but it was, I was like, I used to watch Biggest Loser.

Michigan Wife (1:05:59)

Yeah.

It's work. Yeah. Oh, same.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:06:21)

Biggest loser when they would run them through those exercises where people are like, I think I'm dying. I'm like, I think I'm going to die on this cliff. Right? Because it was, my heart was beating out of my chest. It still does. But like, I don't hesitate to say yes now. So now I'm, when the weather's nicer, I'm usually down there once a month. And fuck, I've even gone down there just for two hours. Like normally it's like you've got to have...

Michigan Wife (1:06:26)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:06:49)

got to be there for eight hours to make it worth the hassle of the climb in and out. I've had an invitation where it was like, oh, we were going to go to lunch. I'd really like to go to the beach. I'm sure you don't want to go to the beach only for a couple of hours because it's all the time that we had available. And I go, actually, I think I would be a yes to that. That's because it doesn't, I don't have a recovery day anymore. I don't like, I don't think I'm going to die.

Michigan Wife (1:07:16)

The amount that I used to hate summer, I used to hate summer. Oh my God, I hated summer. And like, I was the person that wore jeans all summer. And again, this had nothing to do with how other people were seeing me. My thighs rubbed. I was, now that I've lost weight, my doctor can actually see that I'm knock kneed. So like, no matter, like I'm, I've never tried to achieve a thigh gap. It's like, I don't think that's a thing anymore. Maybe it's just over leftover from the nineties and early two thousands, but.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:35)

Oh.

I'm sorry.

Michigan Wife (1:07:45)

I, that will never happen. I could be 90 pounds and never have a thigh gap because my, my legs go in like this at the knee and then like back out. Um, my legs have rubbed my entire life. Like the, and I don't even want to go as far as calling it the chub rub. Like it's just friction and sure they, you know, there's products for that and stuff, but like that was never comfortable for me. So I remember in high school going to a.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:51)

I'm bowed in.

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (1:08:11)

sports camp because I mean I wasn't an athlete like you were an athlete I've always been clumsy and never like talented but I played tennis and golf and the two sports you can play in your 80s like besides pickleball I haven't picked up pickleball yet but I remember wearing shorts because it was July at the sports camp and we were literally living in a high school sleeping in like classrooms

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:28)

Give it time.

Michigan Wife (1:08:41)

as hot as could be, no air conditioning in the place, and doing all of these different athletic activities, wearing shorts because it was hot, and the feeling and the smell of the interstitial fluid in my body because I had to rub skin off of my thighs.

And that happened like day one. So I'm going through the next six days of this camp with raw inner thighs of, you know, I hated summer, hated summer because jeans aren't comfortable, but it's more comfortable than rubbing the skin off your thighs. Um, now I've kind of like through, through the last 10 years, learned how to dress my body in the summer where I could be. Like I was that person rocking Bermuda shorts long after they were not popular. Um,

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:09:09)

Mm-hmm.

Dirty dancing cutoff jeans that are just above the knees.

Michigan Wife (1:09:32)

pedal pushers, you skull, yep. Yeah, so now I still rarely wear, I have so many shorts that I don't wear because I'm like, I might wear them around the house, but if I'm doing any sort of walking, I'm wearing like yoga pants or something because like my thigh is still 130 pounds down, rub. So like, I won't be doing that. But the amount that I love summer now.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:09:57)

Yeah.

Michigan Wife (1:10:02)

and how much I love to get out and go on a walk or go on a bike ride, or I'm not, I definitely would not still classify myself as an athletic person, but like I love to kayak now. And that's not something I would have even tried three years ago. I can paddleboard apparently, no clue. I could do that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:17)

Mm-hmm.

Oh, going back to rock climbing now. I mean, I did it at every size. Well, I mean, I started late with rock climbing, but there's a really cute video. I'll put it in the show notes of the first time I rock climbed. I think you probably saw it where I'm like gushing with Paul in the car and it was. Oh, OK, I'll send it to you. It's super cute. But.

Michigan Wife (1:10:23)

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I don't think I did. I'm excited to see it. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:47)

It was interesting, I used to navigate the rock climbing gym and people would come up to me and go, oh, you're so inspiring. But my first question, my first question when I wanted to try it, because Paul had been doing it, we just hadn't ever, he wanted to go rock climbing, we were pretty new in our relationship. And I said, I kind of want to go, but do they have equipment that fits me? And he's like, yeah. Like, and I go, so I could do this? He's like, yeah. Like he's, he doesn't live.

Michigan Wife (1:10:53)

You're so brave.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:11:16)

life considering his body and what he's able to do or allowed to do. Right? And so being able to do that, it's just easier. There's other things like pegging. Oh my gosh. I strapped on a

Michigan Wife (1:11:41)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:11:42)

completely different. I used to think that it was so hard on my knees and all these things and I'm like, it's a whole different experience now. So it's kind of cool to keep finding things that I used to do, but they're just easier to do now.

Michigan Wife (1:11:49)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I getcha. I think we had mentioned the other day, when people make comments of like, I want to do gastric sleeve or bypass surgery or something, but I'm so worried about the extra skin.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:12:13)

Ugh.

Michigan Wife (1:12:16)

and the amount that like Michelle and I have extra skin. I just don't, yeah, it is interesting. Like I don't, I'm not thrilled with the fact like I have a bunch of extra skin on my, like my inner thighs and my, like I got the arm. Sad I'm not wearing a shirt sleeve shirt to show you, but like I have those things.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:12:19)

Yeah, it's interesting.

Michigan Wife (1:12:35)

It just, it doesn't bother me. Like the, the amount.

that like the joy of exactly like you're saying being able to move your body of feeling like when you say like Paul never considered whether he could do something or like if something would fit him the world was made for people like that and so feeling and now should the world be made like that no the world should be made to consider every one of every size but unfortunately it's not and the amount of

feeling like.

not like you fit because I don't want to want to sound like it's conforming, but like, cause that's not why either of us did it, but not feeling held back. Like I don't worry about going to an amusement park and being able to fit in the ride anymore or like the anxiety of getting on an airplane, um, on the plane to San Diego when I was coming to meet you. And then we went to from there to Tijuana. The feeling of is the.

seatbelt in the plane gonna fit me and I would bring you know one of those seatbelt extenders because you never know based on the airline if it's gonna fit you. Can I get this extender on before the person comes and sits in the seat next to me and sit there and judges me of like oh I'm sitting next to the fat person. The freedom of not again as a disclaimer the world shouldn't be like that the world should consider more people but the feeling of

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:13:56)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Michigan Wife (1:14:11)

not having that shame of I'm so sorry that you have to sit next to me or I'm so sorry like

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:14:15)

Oh, Southwest when you pick your own seats. So often they'd be like, this is a full flight. Well, if there was one seat open on the plane, it would usually be next to me.

Michigan Wife (1:14:19)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:14:29)

Cause who would want to sit in a cramped space, right? Which is a benefit. Like I remember one guy, they were like, it's going to be a full flight. And we get to, nobody's boarding anywhere. I look at the guy next to me and I go, this is the benefit of sitting next to the fat girl. And he kind of motioned at his beer belly, you know? And we just like high fives and kind of joked about it. But yeah, it's unfortunate in...

Michigan Wife (1:14:33)

Yeah. Yep.

I have an open.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:14:59)

and I noticed the difference in how I'm treated.

Michigan Wife (1:15:01)

Yeah. Oh, that's the saddest part of like, I didn't think that would happen to me because like I didn't feel like people were rude to me. You know, you might get a look here and there, but I don't think people were like outwardly rude. It was just more of how people were thinking in their head that I was concerned about, which is stupid. Why even worry about that? But I didn't think that would change. I thought people would be just as polite before. Like I still had doors opened for me occasionally.

I mean, I still got hit on at my highest weight. Probably not my highest weight because that was during cancer. I did, yeah, that's true. I don't know, I've lost that, which is again, loved my booty, but would take this in a heartbeat as a trade off of how I feel. I no longer care whether people find me attractive and that freedom too has helped a lot. As long as I feel good, which I do. So, you know.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:15:35)

Cause you had booty. Like you had, you had great booty.

Yeah.

Michigan Wife (1:16:00)

But yeah, the, it's the amount that I get, and I don't say this to like, you know, boast, but like that, that was a shock for me of like the amount that I'm approached now.

I'm just like, leave me alone. Like, I don't want to be approached. I don't want to, people are like, oh, it's flattering. I'd rather do without it. Like I'd, no thanks. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:16:25)

Yeah, yeah, I had a thought come up and then I'm trying to pull it back forward. Oh, thrift store shopping. I can thrift store shop now.

Michigan Wife (1:16:34)

Oh, you could never, we could never thrift shop store before. Thrift store shop before. There we go. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:16:38)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, now I'm just frustrated that the trend right now with thrift stores is to put everything in color order because it's pretty. But it's, I don't want to shop that hard. Like I want to go to my section. Just put me in the extra large, right? Like, that's my pet peeve around thrift store shopping right now. But I can and I'm so excited to do it. Like.

Michigan Wife (1:16:48)

Oh.

Yeah.

Yeah, I haven't been in...

I haven't been in a long time, I need to do it. I buy a lot of my clothes at Costco now.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:17:08)

Well, if you come out here, bring extra room in your suitcase.

Michigan Wife (1:17:10)

I will, I've heard from, I will absolutely do that. Yeah, I've heard from, I have a friend who moved here from Georgia who was like, your thrift store shopping is shit in Michigan, which maybe it's just West Michigan, but.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:17:25)

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't have enough experience, so I can't say. But I know that I've got. Yeah, I've got spots that are that I'm starting to. We went thrift store shopping the other day with my kids while they were in town. And I was like, we went down to Hillcrest, which is the gay-bor hood and hit. They have a bunch of thrift stores down there. And it was it was like, oh, yeah, this one is by size. Oh, this one is by color.

Michigan Wife (1:17:31)

Yeah, well, we never really did it, yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:17:55)

I ran out of steam really fast in that space, but okay. I'm kind of like, should we not do a third card? Because we were already at a minute or an hour in like 17 minutes.

Michigan Wife (1:18:05)

We can do it. Let's just be mindful of the... Let's try to each keep our responses to like a couple minutes. I think we could do it. Unless you... Okay.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:18:12)

Okay, I don't even know what I'm going to answer, but I'll post the question. I'm sure something will come up for me. Have I changed your mind about anything?

Michigan Wife (1:18:23)

Oh my goodness, so many things. I'm so happy. I'm so happy we did this question. I remember when it was during COVID, and I was so frustrated with my volatile relationship with my ex. And you told me, you know you don't have to co-parent. You know that you don't have to do that. That is not a requirement. Not doing it does not mean you're a bad parent.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:18:26)

Oh, I know what I'm gonna answer. Okay.

Michigan Wife (1:18:52)

And I went through quite a emotionally abusive situation. And that's so hard when you have to try to co-parent with your abuser. And I tried for five years and it wasn't like, there was still so much control happening. And you've changed my life in so many ways, but that was a huge one where like the abusive relationship no longer happens because I don't allow it to.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:19:22)

Don't participate.

Michigan Wife (1:19:23)

Oh, the fact of the way I saw myself as like, I have no control over this, this is just how it is. And yeah, I don't participate anymore. There's no like, oh, I don't care what they think. I don't care. I do what's best for my kid. And I don't care what their opinion is of me. That's been going for almost three years, almost four years now, since you said that to me.

and oh my gosh, the way that changed my life and helped me with boundaries. Knowing you is just fantastic, honestly. And you have such great advice in the, not only that, but you are someone who, you see me, and you're the first person, I think, to see me. And I could argue the only person to see me, where,

I don't have to defend myself to you. You are the first person to be like, to call me out in a way, but like, okay, well have you considered this? And be like, ah, yeah, yep. Shit. Okay. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:28)

Yeah, and you hear it. Like, it's a very mutually loving, healthy relationship between us. Which comes to mind, like, what have you changed my mind about? You are the first woman that I could trust.

Michigan Wife (1:20:33)

Yeah.

Oh, I feel that. I think I'm saying that too, in a way of like, the way you see me. I don't have to try to manage our relationship or I don't have to guess and be like, Oh, is Michelle mad at me or something like, yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:01)

Yeah, no, I really grew up in such a household of competition. And I always kind of treated my female friends pretty disposably in high school. And I was always, my friends are guys, right? Yeah. And I had the moment at Betty Dodson's Body Sex Workshop, which is all women. And I had this moment of like, oh, shit, I need more women in my life. This is really an area that I have not procured.

Michigan Wife (1:21:06)

Yeah.

Yeah, I was that person too.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:31)

and I met you a little less than a year later. And you have been impeccable with your trust.

Michigan Wife (1:21:41)

No. I love you so.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:43)

I love you. You've really helped me grow other female relationships because I got to have that kind of reset with you. And we've been through so fucking much together.

Michigan Wife (1:21:45)

enough.

Yeah.

Love.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:58)

Yeah.

Michigan Wife (1:22:00)

I feel like we need a book or like a, we need to write a book or have a regular something. I don't know. But yeah, I feel, I feel the exact same way. There's probably a lot there that's very similar that I just haven't named yet. There's a lot of things that I take at the face value.

and not delved into the deeper stuff. You are not one of them, but it's, I'm constantly learning like.

you cause me to consider things more deeply, including our relationship and just, oh, I don't know how to like, best friend is not enough to describe you. Like, yeah, exactly.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:22:46)

That's why you're my wife.

My wifey, I still I love my little, I got you that little penny that says wifey, wifey established 2015 like just...

Michigan Wife (1:22:53)

Yes. It's on my keychain. I love it. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:23:02)

I needed you in my life.

Michigan Wife (1:23:06)

I think that there are people I've always, and the advice that I've even given Clara, Clara's had some mean girl situations happen and has always had kind of a difficult time making friends, which is a lot of my story. And when she's in middle school and when a friendship would be lost, I would always say, you know what, friendships come and go. And I'm a firm believer that people come into your life because they need you or you need them and you learn something from that situation.

that you needed to learn. However, you are a forever friend and I think you're the only one I have and probably will ever have.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:23:46)

Ah, keep open to opportunity, possibility. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (1:23:48)

Yes, I will definitely. Yes, I will definitely keep open to that. But it's, it's something that I, I never even thought of. Because I didn't know it was a thing. Like I didn't, I didn't know that people had that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:24:01)

Yeah.

I still see this vision of like, your kids are grown and you move in with me and Paul and whatever the situation is, maybe you've got someone in your life and we can have a duplex or something. I don't know. But like, I just, you're like family that I would live with. Like you are just an extension of myself, but also very different. Like I don't know. I just think it would be very complimentary to have us in the same household.

Michigan Wife (1:24:10)

Mm-hmm. Yep. We just started up a freeze company. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I think that's a good word is the complimentary. Plus I'm handy. So like.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:24:39)

I mean, I became my own my own Home Depot lesbian, but I do have my window here in my office. I was thinking that a Michigan wife put these really cool paper up in my kitchen window that makes it all rainbowy and creates privacy. And this window is also facing right onto the stairwell that walks up and you know, it's my office space. And I was thinking, I should put that in this window. I don't want to do it.

Michigan Wife (1:24:41)

You really have. You really have.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'll come do it. I need to do my sliding glass door because the dog keeps barking at the squirrels in the backyard and I'm like, he might ruin it, but I'm gonna do that to not deal with the barking hopefully. But yeah, all sorts of solutions.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:25:19)

Yeah. But yeah, you are very handy. That was the most lesbian thing that ever happened when we officially were dating. And you're like, do you need a garbage disposal? I can put a garbage disposal in for you. And I was like, is this what it's like to date a woman like?

Michigan Wife (1:25:26)

Right.

Yep. I can figure. Right? I've developed a new motto that I haven't determined yet if it annoys the crap out of my partner, which is if it's if a man can do it, it can't be that hard. I could YouTube anything and figure it out. So I'm like, if anytime I doubt myself, like I just replaced I had a condensate pump that broke. And my basement was a little it wasn't flooded. There was like a

big puddle around my furnace and I'm like, this is probably not good. And I figured it was the condensate pump and I'm like, I can figure this out. I watched a couple of YouTube videos. I went to literally Home Depot and bought a condensate pump and I replaced it. I didn't have the right parts. That's okay. Go back, you know, no home improvement job is complete without at least two trips.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:26:04)

Mm-hmm.

Of course you can.

This is what you do when you do not have expendable cash, right?

Michigan Wife (1:26:25)

When you don't have a cash and when you don't have a person in your life that does those things.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:26:31)

Oh, yes, that's another layer. Cause like, Paul's not super handy, but it's like a gender role situation. Like when he was not here for those six weeks before he moved out here and I was back in the condo, I found myself doing all the things that I wanted to do. I installed a garbage recycling center thing and like.

Michigan Wife (1:26:33)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:26:54)

Like it was, but as soon as he's here, it's just like he automatically jumps in and I automatically let him. It's like we just roll into this gender role situation and it kind of. It's. I like having pride in tackling some of the stuff, you know, and like I did the same thing when I changed out my door locks. I had to go back and forth a few times because of compatibility with the old lock whatever, but.

Michigan Wife (1:27:10)

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:27:20)

Feels really good to have those things. And I think we miss out on that when we let some dude do it. Like, there's some pride. You have great homeowner pride, though. You've done amazing things with your house.

Michigan Wife (1:27:30)

Oh, I've done, I'm still like, I have like one, my bedroom door and the downstairs bathroom door that I've like now painted and changed out the hardware, but I can't, the one thing I can't do, I mean, I'm sure I could figure it out by like balancing it somehow, but I would probably end up like making a hole in the wall and hurting myself. I don't, I haven't taken the doors off the hinges. I take one hinge off at a time and I like paint around it. I'm gonna replace the hinges anyway, but I wanna paint around it. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:27:58)

Sounds like a workaround.

Michigan Wife (1:28:00)

And it's so involved because it takes, the only reason it takes so much time is because it has to like dry in between before I can do another coat that has to dry. Then I can put the new hinge on, then I can move to the other hinge. And it would be a lot faster if there was someone to just like help me put it on the door. So I am slacking on, I've had all the hardware for like a year. I just need to actually do it. But I'm so proud of like the things that I've done in my house. And honestly, the thought of like...

cohabit, it's been a long time since I've cohabitated. It's been, gosh, I won't even count the last partner I had lived with because it was like two months before we realized it wasn't right. So probably my ex-husband was the last time that I lived with someone. And I definitely now I'm like, oh, it would be wonderful in a lot of ways, but also like they're gonna wanna bring their stuff. They're gonna wanna, ugh.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:28:56)

I know and you have such great, you have great taste and that's going to be hard. You're going to end up with a wall of weird. I have the wall of weird.

Michigan Wife (1:29:02)

That's fine. I think what'll have to happen pretty quickly if it gets to that point is like moving into a new space that we can collaborate on because otherwise it feels like my space. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:29:10)

Oh, if you can afford to just literally clear out all of each of your stuff, like as far as furniture and stuff. And that's what we did when we moved back to San Diego. It finally, finally feels like it's ours and not his with some of my stuff. Like, yeah, I, if you have the, if you have the money to do that, I, I think it's worth it, but not everybody has that. But okay.

Michigan Wife (1:29:17)

Yeah.

Yeah. Man, we've gotten off that off base. Yeah. As we do.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:29:41)

It's all right. This is what I this is what every episode is like. And I'm like, either you love it or you hate it. And I don't fucking care. This is for me. I'm having so much fun doing this and I don't regret it at all. Like, I'm like, this is so fun. This is the shit I would do on the phone with all of my friends. And we just get to record it. And yeah, OK.

Michigan Wife (1:29:46)

Good.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:30:08)

Thank you for joining me. Come back again. Yeah.

Michigan Wife (1:30:09)

Thanks for having me. I would love to. Say the word and I'll be there.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:30:16)

I don't know, like maybe I'll put up like a put an calendar reminder in my phone to be like, hey, this person should come back. Like it's been so much time. I don't know. I'm getting ready to go back on Shameless Sex, which is a podcast I recorded last summer and it's kind of blown up on YouTube and so maybe we should do a part two. So like, yeah, I want this to I don't I don't have like, I wanted this to be a really small group of like my usual people, which you would have been in that group anyways.

You're like the 11th episode I think I've recorded of this podcast plus the seven I did for the other the soft cock week podcast. What I'm finding that I really love is randomness. Like having the cards as a jumping off point but then seeing where we go. It's very conversational, very intimate, and the people listening at home are very much have to want to be voyeurs in a sense to really enjoy this kind of podcast. And if that's you, cool.

Michigan Wife (1:30:58)

Yeah.

Yes.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:31:15)

Thanks for being here. Expect more. But ultimately, I'm following my yes, which makes it not feel like work. So, yeah.

Michigan Wife (1:31:16)

Yeah.

Yeah. This, honestly, it feels like us having, I love doing the cards. I feel like that's something that we could implement. I think a lot of times when we talk, we're just some, we're catching up so much on each other's lives or asking for advice or something like that. But I think this would be a fun, regular thing to do as long as it doesn't feel like an obligation or something. Oh, okay. We can definitely do that.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:31:43)

a triple x step.

Yeah. And in spoiler alert, the gift I got for you and the kids was the kids version of this. So I'll get that in the mail and send it to you. I think it might be interesting. You have to let me know how it goes because I just think like, what would it have been like to have these kinds of cards to do in my family? Like I shared on another episode that I bring these cards into my client work as a really

Michigan Wife (1:31:54)

Oh, fun! Oh, I love that. That would be so fun.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:32:15)

It's like an invitation to get to know someone on a deeper level. And I had a client that he loved every like we've met once a month and he'd be like, okay, I bought a, I bought a different deck. Do you want to try this deck? I bought this dating deck. Can we try that deck? Like, and we would always start our sessions off with these because I think he really loved going deep, but he didn't know how to start it.

Michigan Wife (1:32:18)

Yeah.

Yeah. Ah, and that's tricky. Like, I love having those deep conversations, but you don't always know when they're going to happen. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:32:43)

Imagine these in a car, like on a car ride, like a road trip. Okay, I have a want for us, and I've said this, we need to do something, we need to go on vacation together, and I've said either we go find an all-inclusive resort somewhere, or we road trip, and I feel like I keep getting called back to like take you on a road trip because I know there's a lot of parts of my favorite parts of the country that you haven't seen, and I just like, can you imagine us on a road trip with the cards?

Michigan Wife (1:32:46)

Yeah, like a road trip. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay.

Yeah.

Amazing. Like the time would go by like that. Like what driving.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:33:14)

Oh, it does anyways, because I love, like, I call it like keeping people hostage in the car that we get to have like car talk.

Michigan Wife (1:33:19)

Perfect.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:33:23)

Thanks for joining us. I'm sure my Michigan wife will be back because why not? You seem like a natural at this. So I never know when people haven't done this before how freaked out they're going to be.

Michigan Wife (1:33:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, I look forward to it.

Thank you. Yeah.

Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:33:34)

But it was great having you here and to you guys at home. Thanks for listening and I will see you next time.

Michelle Renee

Michelle Renee (she/her) based in San Diego, is dedicated to helping clients discover their true Self. From her personal journey, Michelle knows that love heals. Michelle has combined her 8+ years of experience as both a cuddle therapist and a surrogate partner to create a hybrid form of somatic relational repair. She affectionately welcomes clients into her Human Connection Lab, where she supports them in relational healing through experiential touch, unconditional positive regard, celebrated agency, and authentic connection. Learn more at HumanConnectionCoach.com

She is also the creator of SoftCockWeek.com and the host of The Intimacy Lab Podcast, available on your favorite podcast app.

https://MeetMichelleRenee.com

Meet Michelle’s Michigan Wife

Client Judy

Janie Michael