Coach Alex Ray
In this engaging conversation, Michelle Renee and Coach Alex Ray explore themes of confidence, self-esteem, and the intricacies of sexual identity and kink. They share their origin story, discuss working with social anxiety in social settings, and delve into the importance of communication in intimate relationships. The dialogue also touches on asexuality, the concept of pegging, and the significance of education in understanding kink. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize the value of curiosity and openness in sexual exploration, redefining what success looks like in intimate experiences. In this engaging conversation, Michelle and Alex explore themes of intimacy, authenticity, and vulnerability in relationships. They discuss navigating social spaces, creating safe environments for self-expression, and the importance of honest communication in attraction. The dialogue delves into the complexities of sexual experiences, the significance of presence, and the role of compliments in fostering connection. They also touch on body positivity, the difference between performance and genuine intimacy, and the idea that pleasure can exist beyond traditional notions of orgasm. Throughout, they emphasize the value of curiosity, consent, and mutual exploration in building meaningful relationships.
Alex Ray (he/she/they) is an internationally certified sex and relationship coach with eight years of experience. Whether guiding singles toward their dream partner, bringing couples closer together, or supporting an amicable separation, Alex specializes in helping people speak up for their needs and desires with confidence.
Passionate about sex education and open conversations, Alex is launching Kink Curious, a new podcast premiering in April, where they explore the why behind what turns people on. They’re also building an employee-owned sex education company to bring shame-free learning to more people.
Connect with Alex online @heyalexgay on Instagram and TikTok or coachalexray.com
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Human Connection Coach and Cuddle Therapist. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectioncoach.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/podcast
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
Become a Cuddlist Certified Touch Practitioner and save 10%: https://cuddlist.podia.com/cuddlist-certification/6dnxo?coupon=REFERRAL
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:21)
Welcome back to the intimacy lab. I love getting intimate with Alex. Alex is my I call him a unicorn probably because of the picture behind him. I don't know if it shows very well, but Alex is notorious around San Diego for his amazing business card that I think it's shared like probably more than any business card I've ever run across is like you have to see Alex's business card. And so
Coach Alex Ray (00:33)
Maybe.
Aww.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:49)
Alex is a colleague of mine here in San Diego. Would you do a quick introduction and then we'll talk about how we met and tell our our our cute meat story or whatever you call it there. You know, yeah, me, me, Q, whatever it is. I'm old. I don't know these terms. OK, that works.
Coach Alex Ray (00:59)
Yeah, are me cute?
Meaty cute sounds fun too.
so thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I really appreciate it. For those of you that don't know me, my name is Alex Ray or Alex Gay as I'm known online. I am a coach. I specialize in building confidence and why am I stumbling on this? I specialize in building confidence and self-esteem.
Worked in a few different kind of genres, I guess you could say, of coaching, but what I'm focusing on now is confidence and self-esteem within the context of sex and relationships. I love kink, and I love helping people feel more comfortable and confident to try out kinks that they've either dabbled with or never tried before that they've been maybe curious about, because I know I had many kinks that...
I didn't feel that I could try myself until somebody else kind of gave me permission to try it by telling me that they were into it. Like the first time someone told me they were into water sports, I was like, what? You can say that out loud. Right? Oh my God. It's so edgy. And now I love it. It is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:10)
Mm-hmm.
Golden showers. my, so, so edgy. It is, I mean, to be fair, it really is considered edgy. Yeah,
absolutely. And I can see why somebody wouldn't come forward with that until they're like invited to, so yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (02:30)
Yeah,
but now because he invited me to come forward with that like four or five years ago, now I feel comfortable being the one to initiate for others. So it's wonderful. I do all that. And then I also create porn and the purpose of my porn I say is to show intimacy that you can learn from and get off to. I want people to watch it and think, huh,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:52)
Hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (02:57)
I learned something and I can do that too. That's really kind of my goal with creating any of my porn content.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:05)
on that
note to my children, my friends, my family.
If you want to stop listening now, I'm sure I'm going to overshare. I'm going to overshare about my own relationship with my husband and who knows who else, but overshare about my relationship with Alex. If you want to bow out now, this is your chance to like exit the plane because we're about to take off. And I think it's going to be an amazing fun time. Alex and I entertain the shit out of each other.
Coach Alex Ray (03:13)
That's awful.
Okay.
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:35)
And Gideon is welcome to join in if he has anything to add. Do you ever wonder if your animals could talk and what they would tell the world that they've witnessed?
Coach Alex Ray (03:36)
We do.
as he always insists I'm doing.
boy, I'm glad he can't talk. I want to be able to have secrets if I want them.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, a dog run in their mouth would not be cool. No. So, yeah, when I have people on here that I, mean, most of the time, I don't know if I've had it, I guess I've had a couple people on here that I haven't known in real life. I like to tell kind of our origin stories. So like, how did Michelle and Alex meet? Well, one day, sitting in Hillcrest for my, my regular, I won't disclose the location, but I have a regular happy hour that I co-host.
Coach Alex Ray (03:57)
Right, yeah. Give me the autonomy over what I share.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:24)
For mental health and or intimacy pros, I like to say you don't have to be in mental health and intimacy, though you need to be sex positive, gender affirming, not an asshole to attend, culturally sensitive. Yes, because we're a fun group. Primarily people like sex therapist, people in sex work.
Coach Alex Ray (04:37)
Right. Important, important qualifications, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:52)
in some way, And so I'm sitting there and watching people walk past the location and here comes this tall man in, I think you were in like a platform boot or some kind of like chunky heel. You're very tall. So you put you in heels, this long like, you have this long like straight black skirt.
Coach Alex Ray (04:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I'm like nine feet tall at that point.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:19)
with deep thigh slits, right? Like it's all leg walking with a bright pink blazer. And I just went, my God, I hope this person is coming to my event because I need to know them, right? I was like fingers crossed, hold my breath. And then you didn't for a few minutes. Like it felt like, it felt like a while. Okay. So you went to the bar or something like that.
Coach Alex Ray (05:23)
They go all the way to my hubs, yeah?
See soon.
Yeah, probably like 15 or 20. Yeah.
Yeah, I was waiting for my, I was waiting for Brittany to show up. So, right. So I thought like, you know, I don't know when she's going to get here. So I kept waiting because I, I, I get intimidated going into a new space on my own, even though like I can do it. Sometimes it's just, if I have another person there, it's nice. Also, I think if, if I remember correctly, I went to the bar first to go.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:50)
right. I forgot you guys came together.
Nice to have a yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (06:15)
Okay, let me get a drink. I don't drink alcohol, but they can make like a mocktail for me. And it gives me something to have in my hand for when I feel anxious and not social. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:23)
nervous sips nervous
sips I'm like that all yeah I need like it's like a security blanket and it doesn't need to be alcohol it just needs to be something to do with my hands and my mouth right like
Coach Alex Ray (06:29)
Mmhmm.
Yes, you're
right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:38)
Alex, think when I describe him, like Alex is known for the best blowjob noises on Instagram that he can get away with. Like.
Coach Alex Ray (06:43)
I do
really like that blowjob noise video. I need to do more of that. It popped off. It was really fun. It's my only post to ever hit a million views.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:52)
I need it as like a gift that I can just have saved up my phone
and just like send it to people. If you could send that over, I would appreciate that. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (06:58)
I loved people's reaction.
The like, my God, I was not ready for that noise or what the hell was that or what did I just hear? Cracks me up. Yeah, but.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:08)
Yeah, absolutely. So eventually
Alex, you know, Saunders into the into the happy hour and I was like, yeah, we can be friends. And I think I said to you, I need to put my husband in your closet. Right. Because I think it's like probably the first thing I said to you was like, I want to put my husband in your closet. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (07:12)
Yes.
Uh-huh. Yes.
Yeah, I think you, yeah, I know you said that.
Yeah, I don't know
if it was the very first sentence out of your mouth, but it probably within the first few, for sure. Yeah. I don't know.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:35)
Yeah, yeah. Later on, I said I knew we needed
to be friends and you said something like I did too. How did you like how was what was that for you? Where did you go? my gosh, we should be friends.
Coach Alex Ray (07:45)
Well, I went to this event only knowing that it was going to be a space where different mental health professionals that were all sex positive were going to be meeting. And I knew nothing other than that. I didn't know who was organizing it. I didn't know anything. And so when I walked in, always, I always dress for anything a little, a little over the top as I like to be. But also it's a, it's a tool that I use for social anxiety because
I never have to be the one to start the conversation because my outfit invites people to start a conversation with me and or select out. That's true. The assholes can just not sort of conversation with me and I'm happy. But yeah, when I did finally come over and I think if I remember correctly, part of what took me a while too was
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:22)
or select out.
Show your way to the door. Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (08:39)
people at the bar started a conversation with me about my outfit and we ended up chatting for a bit. And eventually I was like, okay, I need to go to this thing. I don't know where my friend is, but let me, let me, let me go. And I don't know when, when I walked in, I remember feeling like, okay, I don't know these people, but like, I know this is going to be a cool spot. And there's something about you that was just very easy for me to connect with. I felt very natural.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:43)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (09:08)
you felt very welcoming and I thought the more that I learned about you and what you do, was like, you're so freaking cool. Like I want to know more about about you. Your life is interesting and I find I find like I can dig for the interesting nugget in a lot of people, but many times at a gathering like this.
It is a struggle. Most people are much more boring than they think they are. And you fascinated me and my ADHD loves like somebody that's interesting and different and has a story. So I was just immediately like, yeah, you're really cool. I want to know you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:41)
Okay.
I'll take that.
I'll take that. think us showing up together is always a really fun duo because like the two of us, I don't know, we're an interesting, an interesting pair.
Coach Alex Ray (09:55)
So fun.
Yeah, you also, think of anyone I've ever met, you have the easiest time talking about sex and intimacy. You don't shy away from it. And that welcomed me to feel like, my God, yes, there is someone who is not afraid, who's not shying away from this. that is something unique about you that I think is really, really, really cool and special. And I don't ever want you to change.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:26)
Or it's just a lack of filter. Maybe it's just a lack of filter.
Sometimes people tell me about things I've said on this podcast and I'm like, I said that out loud. All right, cool, we're gonna go there. You know that much about me. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (10:36)
Yeah.
But I do
it too, but it's nice when like I'm not the only one in the room doing it. And I, I cannot recall meeting anyone that either met me at my level or passed me. so.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:45)
Yeah.
I don't do blowjob sounds, so you've got me beat there. I will just...
I also don't do blowjob competitions anymore. I haven't been in blowjob competitions. I don't try. Like, I'm not interested in winning. I'm not competitive. I'm like, you're gonna beat me. I'm here for the experience just to say I've done it.
Coach Alex Ray (11:08)
Yeah.
So,
so I have never done a blowjob competition. I imagine people line up to give one person a blowjob and then that person rates their favorite.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:20)
No,
So what we did is we took a dildo and we put on lipstick, and then we competed who could take the most of this dildo. Basically, it more of a deep throat competition.
Coach Alex Ray (11:24)
huh. Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:33)
And so you could mark your spot based on the color lipstick. So think long jump. It's kind of like a long long jump competition. So.
Coach Alex Ray (11:36)
Okay, I did that with a banana one time.
So funny. I
did that years ago. I was very drunk. I was at this like retreat thing and all of us had just gotten back to the Airbnb from partying and like, they're like, my God, let's see who can get the banana the deepest. They go like one or two inches. I'm the third person. I go, me that. I put the whole thing all the way into my mouth and I closed my mouth and went, and they all, no, peel off, peel off.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:07)
Is it with the peel on it or with the peel off of it? Okay.
Coach Alex Ray (12:12)
Yeah, but then all of them went, okay, Alex wins.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:17)
By default, nobody wants
to try to beat you.
Coach Alex Ray (12:20)
Also, no one wanted to put that banana in their mouth, after it had been down my esophagus.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:25)
Well,
yeah, I would be worried about it breaking off and like choking, but like this is the mom in me that shows up and is like, well, wait a minute, what about safety kids?
Coach Alex Ray (12:30)
It ended up being okay.
Right? Speaking of mom though, you were usually daddy when we go out and I love that pairing for us.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:35)
So, okay.
So this is, this
is what I say. Like there's a, there's this like, are you my work wife or my work husband? And I think you prefer work wife. And I always say I'm the mask in this relationship. You're the femme. It's such a lovely flip on everything that society expects. And I fucking love you. I absolutely, I love showing up with you. You are my favorite plus one. Like,
Coach Alex Ray (12:47)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I love you too.
Aww, thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:06)
No offense to any
of my other plus ones that I've ever had, especially no offense to my husband. But I absolutely adore you. so before we can, we have so much that we're gonna be juicy about today, but because this always has some we're not really strangers, do you feel like warming up the audience with some couples questions or should we jump into the triple X?
Coach Alex Ray (13:12)
Hahaha
Let's open up with the couples questions. I love those.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:36)
These are not preselected.
Coach Alex Ray (13:38)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:38)
So I don't know. Okay, so these two levels just like the other deck. So the perception level is level one. What assumption did you make about me that turned out to be right? And we'll both answer this about each other.
Well, I mean, you showed up in a bright pink blazer and a skirt and heels, so the assumptions were all over the place.
Coach Alex Ray (13:54)
Hmm.
Right?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:01)
I
made an assumption that you are incredibly confident and you're trying to tell me that you're not, but I know you are. You are confident. Maybe confident with social anxiety. I think you can have both. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (14:05)
No no no... What?
Absolutely. I think
confidence is different than arrogance. And it's also different than being like blindly confident. I think I have like earned confidence or developed confidence. I Yeah, I think that's it's not really earned. It's it's really about nurtured. It's practiced. I also know
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:25)
Developed confidence, I like that. It's nurtured.
Coach Alex Ray (14:35)
It comes from a deep trust that I'm not gonna abandon myself like I used to. It comes from a deep trust that even if I do, because I'm not perfect, that I'm gonna be kind to myself on the other side no matter what I do and no matter what anyone else does.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:39)
Hmm, yeah.
So I think that when I saw you dressed as you were dressed, I saw that as why you've got a lot of confidence. And what I heard you say earlier was maybe that you dressed that way to, how did you word it? Like to give...
Coach Alex Ray (14:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I
the social anxiety tool that came later, I didn't do that intentionally originally, but I realized after I started dressing that way, I was like, my God, everyone starts a conversation with me. This makes it so easy.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:09)
Okay
And I love that because I think it's the opposite of what I would assume for me having social I have some social anxiety and Standing out would almost to me feel like the opposite of what you would want to do with social anxiety And I love how you've like harnessed it flipped it around You know what I mean like did a whole twist on it. And so I think that's the assumption that isn't right That you wouldn't have social anxiety
Coach Alex Ray (15:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:44)
Right? The assumption of confidence is correct. Right? But for me, confidence and social anxiety, even though I have both too, the assumption is that they don't necessarily go together. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (15:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm trying to I'm this question is very tough for me because I tend to like have issues remembering like details like that. So yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:07)
Mm-hmm. Because you rewrite them, right? Because you
know me differently at this point.
Coach Alex Ray (16:13)
Right. Trying to think of like what I might have assumed about you at first. I think probably, you know, as soon as I found out what you did, I knew, um...
I rightly assumed that you were a safe person to talk about sex work with and to learn from. very, you're very, uh, you're very generous in the way that you share knowledge. And I think a lot of people in many industries tend to feel threatened by anyone that's new and they don't want to share things. They want to gatekeep. And that's not you at all.
And so I...
I don't know, that part isn't really exactly an assumption, but the first part is, I rightly assume that your experience, you know what the hell you're talking about, maybe an assumption that got challenged later was learning about the arc of your journey in the work that you do. Because I would not have guessed that you were asexual when we first met.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:11)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
People tell me that I'm not, which is really fucking pisses me off. Like you want to find the fastest way to get written out of my life. Tell me that you don't respect an identity of mine or know better than me. Like there is somebody in the world right now who knows if they listen to this podcast, but I've been told that they
Coach Alex Ray (17:19)
Well, that's bullshit.
Mm-hmm about yourself
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:43)
don't believe I'm asexual because supposedly we had a conversation that I wanted to have sex with them. A, we didn't have that conversation, but B, I can want to have sex and not be and still be asexual. Which rolls us in to a lovely conversation that you and I had yesterday. So I want to want to pivot for a minute before we do another card. Alex is starting a podcast called Kink Curious or Kink Curious.
Coach Alex Ray (17:55)
Yeah.
Yes, we did.
Can't cure you. Yeah. Can't
curious.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:10)
I get to be a little smidgen part of it. I don't think it makes me a porn star, but who knows? One day it could happen. I haven't decided if that's something I want on my resume or not.
Coach Alex Ray (18:21)
You have so many things on your resume, you can always add another whenever you want.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:24)
Why would I not have that one? I remember
Joan Price as a senior sex educator and her and Jessica Drake put together a series of porn for senior sex. And there was a casting call for couples over 50 to do this. And I was like, if I was over 50, I would jump on the opportunity to be a part of that. So who knows? Maybe there'll be a time where you're like,
Coach Alex Ray (18:31)
Okay.
cool.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:52)
Michelle, I totally need a 49, almost 50 year old woman. It's not that far away before I hit 50. It's this year. Who knows?
Coach Alex Ray (19:00)
Right, and
that's the magic number you have to hit, apparently.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:05)
to be a senior. I mean, I'll take it. Whatever. If it's empowering seniors to do porn, that might be the reason that I say yes.
Coach Alex Ray (19:12)
They will honestly that might be a fine episode to do.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:14)
You know?
I mean, OK, so let me back up. So Alex is like, Michelle, I want to use you as like my phone a friend. At least that's how I this is how I've held it in my brain. You can correct me if this is if the storyline here is wrong. But you're like, I want to use you in this project I'm coming up. I'm going to get pegged by a woman. And for those at home who don't know what pegging is, pegging is when
Coach Alex Ray (19:21)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:42)
Well, traditionally, and I think that they've tried to broaden the definition in most recent years. Traditionally, it was a term that was coined with Dan Savage for a female-bodied person using a strap-on on a male-bodied person, somebody with a prostate specifically. And now it's just, I think, become a more universal term for strap-on sex to, I think, some other.
Coach Alex Ray (20:06)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:08)
identities have have wanted to use the the phrase and I don't I don't care what you want to call it. It's a form of sex with a strap on whatever bodies right but you had an episode planned where you are going to get pegged by a dominatrix right pro dom yeah and the idea was like
Coach Alex Ray (20:18)
Exactly.
Yes. By a woman. A dominatrix.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:34)
call Michelle and she'll give me some tips. Yeah. So what would you like to say about that?
Coach Alex Ray (20:36)
Exactly. Yeah. So each, each episode,
basically, I work with a collaborator, usually a porn star. We talk ahead of time about a kink that they're into. It can be something that they're known for. It could be something that they just enjoy. And then we plan an episode around this topic.
And I always phone a friend either ahead of the recording or during the recording. And that friend has input for me on different things depending on who it is. And we've got a wide variety of different phone a friend people that I'm calling in to give input and
to me, like, each of them are also different, right? Sometimes it's about bringing a voice to the audience. Cause I know that if the audience could talk right now, they would have all these questions or they'd have this shock about like, my God, I can't believe you're doing this Alex, or what's going through your head right now. And then other times it's really about, Hey, let's show Alex's internal experience. And I need somebody else to talk that out with.
And so that's why I really wanted to have you on this episode because this was my first time going to like this far with a woman. And I wasn't sure how my body was going to react. wasn't sure how my, my brain was going to react. wasn't, it was a lot of unknowns and I knew about you that you've done pegging before. And I feel very confident, confident and comfortable with you, like talking about my sex life. And, and I know that you would have.
good advice for me. And also you were the first woman to ever touch my penis, other than a doctor. And that was amazing. It was so awesome. That's right. Yeah, what? I always forget. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:30)
I even touched your prostate. Like I get the twofer. These fingers have been inside you, at least one of them. I don't remember if
I went to two or more, but I do know that I had, think, okay, I at least, so I knew I had at least one, but cool, I've had my, these two inside of you. And I take so much joy in sharing that.
Coach Alex Ray (22:41)
I think you did put two fingers at me, I remember. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Hahaha
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:57)
There is
a pride I have of being, I love being people's first, but you were also the first gay man that I've touched their penis or, or, you know, got to touch their prostate. So we share this like virginity first thing together. And when I, and I love telling people about it the first question, how was that? Right.
Coach Alex Ray (23:01)
Yeah.
Really? Well that gives me...
Yay! That feels special.
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:20)
expected to be like either a disaster maybe or I'm not sure what they think happens like there's some kind of chemical like maybe there's an electric shock process that happens I'm not sure what they think but I'm like it was for science like Alex Alex was celebrating your 30th birthday and leading up to your 30th you did what was it called 30
Coach Alex Ray (23:35)
Yeah.
30 dirty thrills.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:44)
Yeah.
And we were sitting, it was, I think, right after the election. Yeah. We were sitting there chatting and you were like, I really want to try sounding, I think is what you said. Like you came up with like, this is one of your 30 things that you'd like to try. And I was like, I know how to sound. And for the listeners at home, probably don't want to Google this one.
Coach Alex Ray (23:51)
Yes.
huh.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:09)
Sounding is taking a, I like to use the steel rods, but I have a silicone set too. I don't recommend silicone. You take a steel rod and you place it in the urethra and it can be done to penises or I guess what would you call? I guess the vaginal urethra. I don't know how you would describe it, the difference, but on both bodies. Yes, you can take a rod and stick it in a urethra.
Coach Alex Ray (24:29)
Urethras in general, just all urethras.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:35)
And what you experience on the other side is a stretching sensation. And I don't know how, if you would describe it. I've had people describe it as like electricity.
Coach Alex Ray (24:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's... my God, I'm trying to remember what it... I described it so well the first time right after it because it was so fresh in my mind. yeah, electricity feeling was definitely one of it. And the other part that to me was the most significant or consistent sensation every time I've done it, the first time with you and every time since, is it's...
that feeling of satisfaction when you pee, where it's like a, that it's kind of like relief, it's satisfaction, it's, it's not necessarily like, an erotic sensation. For some, it might be like it is a little bit for me because I also like piss play. But I don't know, it's just like,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:30)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (25:34)
Kinda like when someone gives you a good like scratch on your head, when you're getting your head shampooed at the salon, it's like, Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:41)
That might be that tingly. Maybe that's what they were identifying
as electric is more of a tingly sensation. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (25:48)
Yeah, for me,
it depends. I can do tingly sensation and I can also, it's not, it's like a smoother sensation that's just, it's that noise. Yeah. But you can control it. Cause you can like turn it on, you can turn it off, you can turn it more intense, can turn it less intense and that's really cool. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:56)
Okay. Release some kind of, yeah. Yeah. Well, I love that you were, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So
I was like, can help you with this. I can teach you. Because here's the thing I love about, or what I think is important when we talk about kink, is education. So being able, my San Diego wife, Sarah, taught me how to do sounding. And so I've never received it. It's been something that I've considered. I have a friend who's really known for sounding vulvas on women.
Coach Alex Ray (26:20)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:35)
sending urethras on women, vulva owners, whatever. And I've just not taken the opportunity to do it. It's like, yeah, I mean, if the invitation was right there in front of me, I would say, yeah, I want to know what that's like. Kind of like there was one time I was at a kink party and somebody pulled out a blow dart. It was like, anybody want a blow dart to the ass? And I was like,
Of course, because how many times is somebody going to make that invitation? Right? Like, I want to know what that feels like. I'm an experimentalist. I just have to try it. Right. So a curious person and we're going to talk about curious sexual as a terminology that I like to use. Right. So I love that I got to teach you from the point of how to sterilize your equipment to, you know, so it's safe.
Coach Alex Ray (27:06)
Right.
Same.
Right.
Excuse me.
Hmm?
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:31)
And still edgy, right? And the fact that, you know, I was fully clothed, Alex was not, and I got to just be a supportive person to take you through this experience, though it may not be the same as if it was your partner sitting across from you or somebody else. Like, I think adjusting our expectations. And that is what we talked about yesterday leading up to your first pegging experience.
Coach Alex Ray (27:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:59)
was staying curious and like what does success look like? Like modifying our expectations to be, you know, realistic and adjustable. And you don't have to give it away because I know it'll be a really juicy episode, but like, how was it?
Coach Alex Ray (28:00)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was really, really good. this is what I'll, I'll tell everyone this right now. That experience was more pleasurable than almost any time I have hooked up with a man and he's tried to dominate me. I was like, I would take this over any of those experiences.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:46)
I love that. Your flexibility in like your...
Coach Alex Ray (28:47)
Yeah, it was really good.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:52)
You're so not rigid in the sense of I have this, this is what I'm supposed to like or want. And I don't know if it's because you're a sex educator and it comes from this like more expansive, I'm not afraid to try new things space. But like you and I, we sat at breakfast the other day plotting out, should we try having sex with each other? Because
Coach Alex Ray (28:59)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:20)
I'm curious about topping you. Like I want to take you through impact play and some knife play and stuff. And also like maybe we want to have sex. I don't know. And you're like, I don't know. Like what would you know, my husband goes, what would that look like? How does it, how does it, how does a gay guy and in, in Michelle, which I identify as queer, but like I'm asexual and like, so it means I technically don't have sexual attraction for anyone. Right.
Coach Alex Ray (29:24)
Yeah.
Great.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:49)
but
I have sex with all sorts of different bodies. And how does this happen? And I go, well, because I'm asexual. I'm used to having sex with people I'm not sexually attracted to. And so we just have to convert that over for a playbook for Alex, which is what I did with you as advice for the pegging scene, right?
Coach Alex Ray (29:51)
Great.
Exactly.
Yep. Your lens was so helpful to look at it through the perspective of being curious, because I am a very, curious person naturally. And focusing on, okay, what am I feeling in my body? How is my body?
responding rather than how is my brain responding to this. And to this day, including that experience yesterday, I don't think I've ever had romantic attraction to women. I've never felt like, my god, like, I want to be in love with this woman. I want to build a life with this woman. That's never that's never been present for me. I've only felt that towards men.
But I have for years said, you know, if I was ever gonna try anything sexual with a woman, then she would have to be like a dominatrix. wanna have like, a powerful woman is really hot to me. There's, think it goes against my religious upbringing of women being like subservient to men. And I love anything that is heretical.
I also just love this is this goes to my neurodivergence. I love challenging the norms. And so there's also been this part of me that has felt like once I fully accepted myself as gay, then I was like, wow, now this label is right, because the label started feeling like it was limited, or limiting me like, I was like, what do mean if I if I have a sexual experience with a woman, you're gonna tell me I'm not gay anymore. I'll show you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:35)
Now you can fuck with it.
Well, it's just like, are you familiar with Dr. Joe Kort at all?
Coach Alex Ray (31:48)
Watch this.
No, I don't think so.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:54)
He's a sex therapist out of Detroit. He's got a really popular TikTok channel. And he got popular talking about how men can have sex with men and not be gay. So it's kind of the inverse of this, right? Is like who you have sex with is not necessarily about your orientation. It's like I put out a piece about International Asexual Day was Sunday.
Coach Alex Ray (31:57)
Okay.
So look them up.
Hmm
Right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:21)
And I put out a piece where I really, part of it was my disappointment in the sex therapy or intimacy professional arena around the lack of understanding about what asexuality is. And I quote a very, I didn't use his name, I quote a very famous sex therapist who I had a lot of respect for until he erased my identity in a post about why do asexuals need a
Coach Alex Ray (32:36)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:49)
community. Like why label yourself? We don't label people that only like to have sex in the dark. And I'm like you're not understanding what it means. This is about we ask everyone to declare their sexual orientation, right? I'm not sexually attracted to anyone which makes me asexual. It's like
Coach Alex Ray (32:51)
Hmm.
Right.
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:16)
the difference between you saying like your romantic attraction versus your sexual attraction versus whatever. Like if you're asking me to declare my sexual orientation, that would be my sexual orientation. And I can have sex with all sorts of people. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (33:22)
Is it?
Right. None. Right. Because
for you, it's not about having the sexual attraction. Yeah. And that kind of
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:35)
It's somebody to do
an activity with. We could go bowling, right? I say this often. It's just another activity. Do we want to go bowling or do we want to have sex?
Coach Alex Ray (33:38)
Yes.
Right. And
that's how I was able to approach yesterday. Thanks to you giving me that lens and perspective. It really like encouraged me to feel so much less pressure around the experience and like it was an activity and it was a very fun activity and a very pleasurable activity. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
I love that. I just, I can't wait for this episode to come out. mean this episode, but also what I really meant was your, your new podcast to come out, which will be on Just For Fans. Cause it is going to be spicy.
Coach Alex Ray (34:21)
The video demo of me getting pegged is gonna be on Just For Fans. beginning and end where we talk about things and we're not actually showing things that will be on YouTube and other podcast platforms. so people can still kind of, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:25)
Right.
Good, yay. Then I can share it all over the place. Yeah, I
am so, I hadn't got that clarity yet, but that's really good to know. I hope you're a real role model for all sorts of people to just be experimental. Like we talked about in the lead up is like, what is success? Success is that you didn't abandon yourself.
Coach Alex Ray (34:44)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:00)
and that you followed your yes. Right. And
just keep doing more of what feels good.
Coach Alex Ray (35:04)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:06)
Yeah, that's what sex should look like.
Coach Alex Ray (35:07)
I agree.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:08)
And it's still sex even when it's pegging. It's still sex even when it's not PIV or whatever. You know, it's just, anyways. Okay. Are you ready for another question?
Coach Alex Ray (35:18)
Yeah, I define sex so broadly.
I also define kink very broadly too. To me kink is like anything other than missionary baby making sex. right. At the.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:23)
Yeah.
with a hole in the sheet. Although I think that would be really kinky. At this point, I joke with my husband
that we're kinky if we turn the lights off because we always have the lights on. Whatever. Okay, are you ready for another question? Okay. What's one small thing I do that tells you everything you need to know about me?
Coach Alex Ray (35:38)
Yeah. Yup. Fumbling around. I'm ready.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:50)
Mind you, everyone at home, this is the couples edition and Alex and I have joked about taking this as like a road show where we would sit on a stage and answer these questions about each other because we are the funnest couple.
Coach Alex Ray (36:00)
We are. We are so fun. Wait, okay, say the question again.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:05)
what's one small thing I do that tells you everything you need to know about me? And I have what answer for myself from you. Like I have, I figured out what I would say if I were you, but I'll let you come up with something first and then we can share that side too, if you come up with one that I should use for you.
Coach Alex Ray (36:07)
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Well,
I struggle with the word small thing because I think to you it is a small thing. And I think to other people, they're like, they're shocked. Your ease in talking about sex and intimacy, the way you just approach it so easily and just it's like a part of normal conversation like the weather. yeah, that,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:32)
huh.
yeah.
I
mean, I would say the same in your, my answer for, for about you is that like there's a lack of shame.
Coach Alex Ray (36:54)
Mmm, mhm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:55)
Right? And that might feel like a really big thing, but I think that's a really important characteristic about you is that like, and I don't want this to, I have a very protective mama bear instinct for me. And I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but I remember we went to an open house for a therapy office and I asked if you wanted to be my date and you were like, yes. And I picked you up and.
Coach Alex Ray (36:58)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:21)
you know, and we went to that and then I was like, friends are meeting for a drink. Are you sure you want to go to Santee? Like, Santee if you're not familiar with the San Diego area, it's a little more of the red side of the county, right? And you are again, dressed to the nines, right? And there was a part of me, probably was the same skirt, which that skirt looks amazing on my husband too. I just want to say like, Anyways.
Coach Alex Ray (37:33)
Yeah.
Yep, probably in that same skirt.
It does. He looks fabulous in it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:48)
dress up parties are fun everyone should try it anyways. So as we're walking into that, that establishment, which I knew was a friend, I knew the owners would be friendly enough just based on that they were friends with my friend, but I didn't know about the other people. And there was a part of me that was like mama bear ready to like cut a bitch, right? Like anything I had to do to like, I made this like, how is this going to go? Cause I hadn't
Coach Alex Ray (37:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:12)
explored space with you that's outside of like, I would say more like gay and gender friendly establishments. And I was like, who am I going to have to go like break out the brass knuckles? What are we going to do here? Right? Like, and so you were like, yeah, no, not a problem. If it gets to be too much, I'll just call your boyfriend, not my boyfriend or boyfriend to come pick you up. Right. And yeah. But I was like, how am I going to
Coach Alex Ray (38:21)
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:41)
How do I navigate assholes? Because I'm going to burn shit down.
Coach Alex Ray (38:43)
Yeah.
That is a really important, and maybe it's funny, because you make me feel comfortable like that. Like I feel seen, I feel safe with you. I never feel like if something happened and somebody was like bullying me in front of you, it's never even crossed my mind that you would just like back up and let me take it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:11)
I will not fawn for
you.
Coach Alex Ray (39:13)
No. Which is the-
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:15)
I have a history of turning on the full customer service version of Michelle, right? Where a complete fawn response shows up and I'm like, I'm so sorry, I made you uncomfortable. my gosh, how could I, you but I promise you I would not do that with you.
Coach Alex Ray (39:25)
Yeah.
You
I think that all of it goes to you just make me feel so safe to just be me around you. I never feel like I have to filter anything. And it's really easy for me to like bring up and just share things with you very casually that with other people can feel very intimidating or kind of like I'm thinking ahead to how are they gonna judge me. I never think how is Michelle gonna judge me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:53)
Mm-hmm.
no, you shouldn't. You shouldn't worry about that with me at all. No, no.
Coach Alex Ray (39:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:02)
I'm more like, you've just now tried that thing?
Coach Alex Ray (40:06)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:07)
What if we tell you about my first time? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember driving to LA with you and us sharing like our golden shower experiences, right? Like, I'm like, there's not a lot of things I haven't tried. There are things, and there are things I'm not interested in trying, but I will not yuck someone else's yum. And most likely, I've done it too, so.
Coach Alex Ray (40:09)
Right, yeah. You're like, that's not a big deal,
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
There you go.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:34)
reality of it. It's been a good 10 years post divorce. I I did not you know I did not smoke weed until I got divorced at 30 was I 38? That was my first drug. Yeah I know and now I've I think I've got three illegals under my belt. don't know. Anyways I won't name them but
Coach Alex Ray (40:37)
Yes. The best years.
Wow, good for you. my goodness, such a rebel.
I love it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:01)
Anyways, one another question. Okay, how would you describe the way I love you to a stranger?
Coach Alex Ray (41:04)
I want another question, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:09)
Hmm
Coach Alex Ray (41:09)
Wait,
this is how would I describe...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:13)
How would you describe the way that I love you to a stranger?
Coach Alex Ray (41:17)
to
a stranger,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:19)
I think you love me very much like Paul in the sense that what I love about Paul when I first met him is that when I expected him to be put off by my authenticity and my openness around other people, that he celebrated me instead of being like, why are you talking about that? That's private. You should keep that to yourself. I see you in the same way about you love me very like honestly.
Coach Alex Ray (41:36)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true. I do love you very honestly. I would describe the way that you love me similar. It's a blend between like a partner and a friend, like a friend that I've known forever, even though we've only known each other for like a year and a little bit of daddy. Yeah, like you're, it's...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:49)
Mm-hmm.
and a little bit of daddy. And a little...
Coach Alex Ray (42:09)
You love me in a similar to what you explained. Like, you love me just being myself. You, you, I think, are able to see things about me that sometimes I'm not even aware of yet or thinking. And you're like, ready to welcome that part of me as soon as I'm ready as well. Or sometimes you're also like, what about this? Sometimes you're...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:16)
Mm-hmm.
I make some assumptions about you. Like the other day you told me
like that when you went down to Blacks Beach with us, that that was like your first time around a naked woman. And I was like, I was shocked. And then I thought about it later. I'm like, why am I shocked? Why am I shocked? Like I just imposed you into my world like you'd been there for a decade or something.
Coach Alex Ray (42:42)
yeah.
Right.
And that's, yeah, you're just, you brought me in so quickly and I really appreciate that. It just, yeah. I think we both do a wonderful job of making the other feel safe to be authentically ourselves. And that's really special to me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:08)
Yeah.
Yeah. No, feel the same. I feel the same safety with you. Absolutely. Which is why I like to get curious with you. Because it's like, what is the harm here? We're not going to.
Coach Alex Ray (43:17)
Yeah, same.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:22)
Let's just say one day craziest things happen and we fuck. Let's say it goes incredibly wrong, whatever that means. I'm not sure what that actually would mean, but like I would never worry that like, no, we can't be friends anymore. We're doing it as friends. yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (43:36)
Yes. Yeah, right. You know, there's a difference
to I have had several women throughout my lifetime, Tell. me let me be your first. if you're ever looking to experiment, I would love to with every single one of them until you. It felt like they wanted to get something out of it. It felt like it was for them.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:49)
Mmm.
Hmm.
What would you get out of that? I'm just, I don't know.
Coach Alex Ray (44:05)
I don't know the pride of being my first or something I think is what they were sure but but yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:08)
I mean, I get that out of it. Let's just be real fucking clear. I am owning that I have that notch
on my belt, okay?
Coach Alex Ray (44:18)
But I didn't feel
like you were unevenly taking something from me, right? And that's what it felt like every other time I've had like an offer with you, it felt more like, hey, I'm a safe space. If you ever want to try this and like we're friends and like nothing's at at stake here. Like if you ever want to experiment, I think it could be pretty cool. And it feels like an invitation. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:23)
yeah.
Yeah.
I do remember that conversation now. I remember
that because my brain went to, we just sitting over breakfast, navigating this thing we're both curious about. But I do remember that conversation now that it came up and you were like, I mean, I'm, I'm curious. And I was like, I would volunteer. Like, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (44:47)
Yeah.
Exactly.
Right.
That's so different than when I've had a, and I don't think this is a unique experience to me. I'm pretty sure other gays I've experienced similar things where women that are close to them are like, if you ever want to try. it has always to me felt like they were doing it for their sake. They were not making an offer to experiment with me, to play with me. was, it wasn't about that. They wanted something from me. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:18)
Yeah.
say this. I had
a friend back in the day who I we were very close kind of I said we're like work spouses in the sense that I was at home and he was at work and we would spend all day on messenger with each other. And we had a really lovely friendship that had a lot of chemistry to it. And I had a huge crush on him. Right. And if he had was not in an open relationship at the time, so I guess
Coach Alex Ray (45:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:49)
it would have been very complicated, but I would have jumped on it. But from a place of hoping that there was something else there, like, and I don't know if that's any of the experiences that you've had, and you probably don't know that either. But I will say that I'm not that that that mindset of mine is such a past version of me. This is like Michelle married the first time version where
Coach Alex Ray (45:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:13)
There was a lot of different reasons to have sex and I was waiting for A, somebody to rescue me. And he was just a fantasy that was very unattainable. And for some reason that was very familiar for my system, right?
Coach Alex Ray (46:24)
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, I think there's something to that because with you I feel like it the my my worst fear has always been that I get into a situation where I'm experimenting consensually with a woman, but then like I'm not getting aroused or or I'm like Hey, I'm starting to feel like I don't even want to do this anymore. And I'm changing my mind, right? I have always felt like
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:44)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (46:52)
that would break a woman, the ones that have offered in the past. With you, I feel like you and I trying it, we would go into it knowing that like, don't, both of us are prepared to enter this without that, the sexual attraction part showing up and we're just gonna experiment and have fun and like see what bodies do. It's...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
made it I've made
up a story that Alex is probably capable of having lovely touch right
Coach Alex Ray (47:21)
I do have great- I'm a great cuddler, I- yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:24)
Yeah, I
can, I can, with lack of a lot of visualization, because I have a fantasia, but I can imagine in the best way I can, that it would be comfortable to share that space with, we may decide to eat pizza naked. You know what I mean? Like, that might be what sex looks like for us. Who knows? Right? But like, I don't worry about it being an awkward, non communicated space. You'd be like,
Coach Alex Ray (47:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:51)
You know what, Michelle, you
Coach Alex Ray (47:51)
No.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:52)
told me about that peanut butter chocolate ice cream you have in your freezer and I think that sounds better than this right now. And I feel like I think you're right.
Coach Alex Ray (47:56)
Right.
Right. But then then it would I also would feel so comfortable like, like having closeness having bodily contact with you. It doesn't. Yeah, it's just not. It's you're not a vampire. You're not trying to suck the life out of me. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:07)
Mm-hmm.
And I just happen to have
a lot of experience of having to wait for my arousal to show up for my desire to show up. So I don't have to go into it with like, I'm hot for this thing to happen. I am hot for the the the curiosity. Is growing. And like, I do have this like, wouldn't it be a fucking cool story to tell? Like there is that like I love collecting fun stories, and so this would be another chapter in my book.
Coach Alex Ray (48:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Me too.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:48)
one of these days of like that one time, remember that one time? Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (48:50)
Yeah. Remember
that one time? That was pretty cool. Definitely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:56)
Are you ready to move into some triple X? Okay, so the first level is just one X.
Coach Alex Ray (48:59)
I want it. I was gonna ask for it.
just one axe, okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:04)
But I think we have a little, I mean, we still had a little bit of time, so I think we can maybe get through a whole three levels and get to the triple X we've been building. What are you most attracted to that isn't physical?
Coach Alex Ray (49:10)
Okay, I'm game
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:17)
I read that wrong in my head that first and I was like, this is going to be an interesting one. Okay. I read it wrong the first time. Honesty.
Coach Alex Ray (49:18)
honesty.
Honesty. Yeah. I heard
it wrong in my head too the first time you said it. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:27)
I was like, are
we going to have to talk about what we're physically attracted to about each other? That will be interesting. I could say you're you've got a tight ass body like I will. I will throw that out there as a off card. What my first thought was comments, I will say. Like I said to you one time, is it OK for me to objectify you and you're like, fuck yeah, please do. And I was like, OK, cool, I could do that.
Coach Alex Ray (49:32)
Right?
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.
The way, so much, I'm okay with so much with consent. The thing I, don't, when I am just like normal, just with a friend and they start objectifying me when there's no context around that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:57)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (50:12)
Like we're not talking about sexual things when they start just sexualizing me. That has made me uncomfortable in the past. But with you, one, you ask consent. Two, we talk about that stuff with each other. So it wasn't weird for you to ask for consent in the first place. And I perform a lot, right? If somebody wants to sexualize me while I'm performing, whether it's go-going, whether it's me showing up online on Instagram or...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:16)
Mm-hmm.
It's not unusual.
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (50:40)
Only fans or anything like that. Please objectify me. That's what I'm there for Right, please Yeah, I'm not talking about the tippy or penis I want Give me a cash tip
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:43)
but also include a Right? You're not a professional for free.
thought
about you. I went to Lips to the gospel brunch last Sunday, second time I've gone I went before COVID and my friend Phoenix was in town and wanted a drag brunch and I was like, oh, we couldn't find anything else. And I was like, there's always Lips, Lips does two gospel brunches every Sunday, like we can go to the early show or the later show, right? Like it's a it's a given. And they do such a good job of priming the audience to tip.
Coach Alex Ray (51:00)
Yeah.
That's a great one.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:23)
Right? Such a good job. it just reminded me of conversations we've had about, you know, we don't live in a cash economy and it's really hard for performers to get their tips. So.
Coach Alex Ray (51:23)
yeah, for sure.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:37)
I should answer this. Honestly for you, for me, I my gosh, a vulnerable conversation is such a turn on for me. Like, share something that's a little difficult to share. If you share tears to me. Yeah. Yep. Okay.
Coach Alex Ray (51:39)
Honesty for me.
Me too.
Yeah, totally. I
agree. look, we're already we're already compatible.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:03)
We're already at double X.
Okay, the best way to get me into bed is blank? I almost just said it right, like vulnerable conversation. But no, I will tell a story but I'll let you do you want to go first? How does one get you into bed? How do you bed? Mr. Coach Alex Ray?
Coach Alex Ray (52:14)
Mm-hmm.
Ooh.
The best way to get me into... The best way...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:22)
besides money.
I I also have
Coach Alex Ray (52:27)
Okay, why don't you tell your story because I'm still thinking about my answer.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:29)
Okay.
Okay, so you know I hang out with a lovely gentleman who I call my platonic boyfriend and we have not made the decision to move to a sexual relationship at this point. Who knows what the future holds? And we often spend the night together and we cuddle and sleep naked. And we are cuddled up one night. And mind you, I really, he's very lovely, such a sweet man. You've met him.
Coach Alex Ray (52:37)
Yes.
Uh-huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:00)
We don't really play in like even the tease around sex. Like we talk about it openly, but it's not like a building of like chemistry. Like there's not a flirtation kind of around sex. There's not a tease around sex. It's kind of like, will we or won't we? don't know, you know, whatever. So we're, we're laying in bed and I'm the little spoon the big spoon. And he does this like, I love light touch and he does this light touch down my back. And I go, that sir will get you laid. Like again,
Coach Alex Ray (53:16)
Yeah.
You
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:28)
It's the quality of the touch that is the turn on that brings desire, right? Because I'm responsive desire. I have to have arousal before sexual desire shows up. And it was just that light touch on my back. I was like, that could take me places, right? Like that gets you laid.
Coach Alex Ray (53:30)
God.
you
Yeah.
Okay, I love that. For me, having, there's kind of a two-parter. When I find someone very interesting and alluring, so like, if you have a little bit of mystery to you, if you have interesting stories that capture my attention,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:02)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (54:08)
that gets me interested and it has to be coupled with a sense of autonomy. If I feel that somebody's trying to trick me into something or that I don't have a welcome door to say no, then old Alex would probably not mind that. New Alex goes, screw that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:27)
Mm-hmm.
same.
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (54:36)
I'm perfectly happy. don't need sex with you. don't want sex with you. Goodbye.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:43)
I used to use sex to validate myself, right? To show me that I am desirable to you or that I'm worth picking or whatever, right? And nowadays my body is so much louder about, it feel like I could say no to this person if we got into the middle of it? Like you were just saying about with me, like does this person feel like somebody I could change my mind with? Because if not, why bother? Why risk it? Why?
Coach Alex Ray (54:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:10)
Like, I don't want to end up in a situation where I fall back into old patterns where I'm just trying to keep myself emotionally safe. I don't know about if I think I'm physically unsafe, but I have a real history of like kind of fawning in sexual situations.
Coach Alex Ray (55:29)
Yeah, that used to mean me too. First sexual experience ever was being coerced by my friend, so like.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:30)
Yeah.
I've
told this story before on here. You haven't met the pussy whisperer yet, have you? No.
Coach Alex Ray (55:43)
No, but I've heard lots about the pussy whisperer.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:46)
Yeah, so
one of my favorite things about him was when I was debating on playing with him solo and not as part of like a group situation like I had before. I was hesitant to say to him that I really just wanted to receive. I didn't want to have to reciprocate. And his thing was like, I'm a grown ass man, I can take care of myself. And I was like, well, hello, that makes me feel like a better yes.
Coach Alex Ray (55:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Totally.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:10)
We love them. Okay, one day you'll meet him. Okay.
Coach Alex Ray (56:13)
I hope so.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:14)
I love, he's a really lovely person. Okay. We've made it to the triple.
Coach Alex Ray (56:18)
Hmmmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:20)
What's the hottest thing someone has ever said to you in bed?
Good.
Coach Alex Ray (56:24)
the hottest thing someone's ever said to me in bed.
It's definitely got to be, again, this is more like memory. I'm like, my God, specifics? I remember a vibe, but do I have to remember the specific line?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:36)
I know I'm not sure exactly
the word, but I know it was one of two words, and I'll explain that when I get to mine.
Coach Alex Ray (56:42)
It's, can I tell the hottest thing it wasn't in bed, but let me tell you what, it is one of the reasons that I'm with my partner now. So early on, we knew that the goal was eventually to be in an open, non-monogamous relationship.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:52)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (57:00)
I was very anxious about it. had just left a terrible first experience of non-monogamy and we were at the, were, my partner and I were working out at the gym together early on and he complimented someone else's ass to me. He was like, look at that guy's ass. It's so great. And a couple of minutes later I said to him, Hey, I'm just noticing that I'm feeling a lot of anxiety in my body. Like
Is my ass that good? Like, are you into mine? And he didn't say a word. He put out his finger, like the number one, onto my chest. And then with the other hand, he made the motion like he took an iron. And then he went, ssss
And I was like, my God, just marry me already, right? Like that was my reaction right there at that moment. He does have a great booty. Yeah. He also doesn't even remember doing that, which is so great because it was just a natural reaction of his. It wasn't like.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:57)
And he has a great booty too, like he does, yeah.
Yeah, it wasn't a line that
he uses on all of his boyfriends. Yeah, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (58:10)
No. No.
Yeah. So I think that's probably it. Like hearing that I'm somebody's number one.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:19)
I will say that there might be plenty of other really hot things that have been said to me in bed. I have some favorite compliments, but I will say this, the hottest thing, and I said this, this was a client of mine. He came up from going down on me and he goes, he just goes, God, I love the way you smell. And I go.
Coach Alex Ray (58:36)
Uh-huh.
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:41)
That will get you laid so often friend if you do that when you're out dating because this is a client that I was you know
coaching, right? Like, that is a compliment. There is no woman that doesn't want to hear that because we are so taught by society that we shouldn't have any odor or it should smell like fucking flowers down there. And that is not reality nor healthy, right? Like, we are going to have a sense. And that I don't
Coach Alex Ray (58:54)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:11)
think most women walk into a sexual situation with a new partner and go, no, is he gonna like how I taste? Is he gonna like how I smell? Right? The other question is, if I squirt, that gonna be a problem? Because there are plenty of people that are very shaming about it. And then there's the other half that's like, bring it, I'm not a man if it doesn't happen, right? It's like, there's no middle ground. It's either you have to do this to perform that I'm doing my job well or...
Coach Alex Ray (59:20)
Yeah.
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:39)
You should never do that. That's disgusting. So like, yeah, I like to hear that. like to hear that. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to taste you all day or I'm going to smell you all day. Yeah, like that's a that's a thing that is really soothing to the anxious the part that is still a little anxious because you don't want to be.
Coach Alex Ray (59:42)
Right, not just, let's see what happens.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:04)
kind of shamed about it. We had a whole thing when Sarah and I used to do our like pussy confidence workshop. We had a whole thing about like, what are different derogatory names that society has for like vulvas or like terms that we throw at that part of our body. like the derogatory things of like fishy or you know, those things like we sell so much product.
Coach Alex Ray (1:00:10)
Buh-Zoo.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:33)
to like sterilize the odor of that part of our body. And it's just like, it's not good for you. And it's not like, it's not natural. so yeah, that's my, like the thing that pops up most is that, God, you smell good. Or he said that or tastes good. I think it was smell. Cause I remember him just taking this big whiff and I was like, that's so you, that is so an endearing thing to say in those spaces.
Coach Alex Ray (1:01:00)
I love that. The closest...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:02)
The other thing is
the compliment I got that sticks with me the most was, you're so present.
Right? Like I've had plenty of sexual partners that I'm like, where do you go?
especially men that think that they should like with like, they have that, I'll just think about baseball and then I won't come, you know? And I'm like, I'd rather you come and be here than thinking about baseball. Like that's not, I have a kink for people to come fast. Like that's what I've learned about myself. It's like, if I can make you come faster than you want to, I win. That's my kink.
Coach Alex Ray (1:01:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
I hit a guy.
Yeah.
I love that I had never thought about intentionally distracting my mind until the very first guy that ever did that that I knew about. He was fucking me and all of a sudden he starts going, I'm close. goes, grandma, grandma, grandma, grandma. It was like, and I, I remember thinking, wait, hold on. You're trying actively not to come yet. And so you're thinking about and saying out loud,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:04)
You're bringing your grandma into our space.
Coach Alex Ray (1:02:04)
Grandma,
right? That's kind of weird. But I will admit that I have also felt pressure many times to last longer. And after I heard that, I started doing that. Not every time, but sometimes when frequent, I would say more often than not, if I feel pressured to last longer.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:20)
Mmm.
Coach Alex Ray (1:02:29)
especially because usually what I'll say is, I'm getting close. What
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:32)
And I want that communication,
right? Because I can stop. You know, it's not always gonna stop the train, right? Like if you don't catch it quick enough, you're not necessarily gonna stop the train. But I wanna know that, because like I might not be ready for you to finish.
Coach Alex Ray (1:02:36)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, but
Yeah, there's two different ways though that you can communicate that you're not ready. One is, don't do it yet. And it's like demanding and that immediately I'm going like, God, now I have a lot of pressure on me. It's not my kink. It can be a kink, it's not mine.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Unless that's your kink.
It can be a kink. I have had plenty of men
ask me to do orgasm control with them, right? And it's like, do I have permission to come now? Like, and their body gets so used to having that trigger. It's, you know. Oh, for sure. If it's, yeah, absolutely. A demand to like, you're going to be in trouble if you, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:03:15)
Sure.
Yeah.
But even that is kind of consensual. Well, not kind of, it is consensual, because they're asking for that.
that if I
feel as though I'm going to be in trouble, then it's like, is not fun. That the shame, but if someone's like, wait, there's still one more position I want to try, then I then having that reason, it doesn't feel like shame anymore. It's like, yeah, sure. Okay, hold on. I'll hold it. All right, let's get into that. And then it still allows me to be present. But if, I'm thinking, I will be shamed if I come right now, then
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:03:40)
or you're a bad lover or.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:04:02)
I'll go, okay, let me think of something to like, get out of this. It doesn't really work all that well for my body though. I've tried it a few times and what.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:08)
I was with a new partner. I was with a
new partner recently and I realized in the midst of the sex that we hadn't talked about how he would prefer to finish or how soon, cause he's not my regular partner. I know the cadence of sex with my partner, right? I know that we both are good with things going quicker cause it's kind of my kink. Like I mean, I know that for me there's a buffet of sex. It's not,
Coach Alex Ray (1:04:19)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:37)
assert like P IV isn't the thing with this person. We hadn't talked about what does what does finish look like for us? And I happen to get him a little closer than expected. And, and I stopped and I go, I could tell he was real close. And I go, wait, we didn't talk about this. Is this how you want to finish? And he's like too late now. And I was like, all right, we're finishing this way, right? Because there's no the train was train left the station, right? Like, in
Coach Alex Ray (1:04:39)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:05)
I had
a great time. thought it was wonderful. I that's that is not what makes long sex is not what makes for good sex for me at all. Like it can be but it's not it is absolutely not the what is the thing I'm gauging is not how long the erection lasted or
Coach Alex Ray (1:05:13)
Mm, mhm.
Mmm.
Yeah. To me, it's about the connection. I feel connected? I feel like I could be my authentic self? Did I feel like someone saw me vulnerable and validated me? And vice versa? Did we get to have this intimate connection or was... Yeah. If it felt like a performance, it wasn't...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Did I feel like I didn't have to hold myself back? Because that is real. Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:05:51)
Except for, I will say, I can get into a performance kink when creating porn. Like if that's the goal, to be a performance, then I can turn it into something that's hot. But not in my personal life. If it's not meant to be a performance, I don't want to perform for someone that I'm just trying to have an intimate sexual experience with.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:56)
Right. Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
I tell a funny
story back when I was first divorced and I was out dating around, I found myself in a situation where the guy came really fast. I hadn't come yet. This is a multiple situation, like where it happened a few different experiences with the same person. And it was like maybe the second time. So I brought a vibrator with me and I found myself literally trying to get off next to a man that had fallen asleep.
Coach Alex Ray (1:06:15)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:06:37)
and I wasn't even turned on and I stopped myself and go what are you doing Michelle? Like are you performing for this guy and he's not even awake? Take your ass home!
Take your ass home, Michelle. You are not doing this. This is old shit behavior, right? I was just, I was just, I was still in Michelle like barely 2.0, right? Like I was baby new Michelle. And it was just one of those moments where I was like, what the fuck are you doing?
Coach Alex Ray (1:06:51)
No. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've only recently been able to start realizing when I really genuinely don't care about coming, but I've enjoyed the experience and I'm like, I'm done, I'm complete. And being able to say that, because I used to feel like, well, it isn't a complete experience until we both get off. But sometimes I don't want to. And that's not necessarily because it like
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:07:29)
I'm like, oh my god, this is bad. need to get out of here. Sometimes it is that, but most of the time it's not that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:34)
Sometimes I like to just be a giver.
Coach Alex Ray (1:07:38)
Sure.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:38)
and make the whole session about my partner. And that does not include my orgasm all the time. And I'm totally happy with it. And even if I want to get off, I have ways to get off.
Coach Alex Ray (1:07:41)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:51)
And if it's not there, I'm not gonna force my orgasm either. Like, it doesn't mean we didn't have sex. It doesn't mean it wasn't pleasurable. You can have pleasure without orgasms.
Coach Alex Ray (1:07:57)
Right.
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:03)
And that's why eat chocolate peanut butter ice cream. It's pleasure. Feels good.
Coach Alex Ray (1:08:06)
I love,
I like to take the chocolate ice cream from Trader Joe's and peanut butter and just like scoop a spoon of peanut butter and then like scoop chocolate ice cream and then like
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:11)
Mm.
see, I like to
melt the peanut butter and pour it on top.
Coach Alex Ray (1:08:22)
that sounds really good.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:23)
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:08:24)
Hmm, we might have to show each other our methods.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:25)
Anyways.
We'll trade our favorite. Well, I have a brand of chocolate peanut butter ice cream that I love. Tla-mook, is that how you pronounce it? that one, the peanut butter is so salty in it. It has such a good contrast. So yeah, when you come over, that'll be our after sex dessert. So, brief.
Coach Alex Ray (1:08:34)
okay, perfect. Yeah, yeah.
you
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes. I love an after
sex dessert. That's what all sex should include an after sex dessert or snack.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:54)
Before we, sorry, I have to plug in my computer because I had it. Before we set off, I just have to say a really funny story. I said to Alex the other day, do you want to hang out on Tuesday and meet my friend Phoenix? you're like, hang out, hang out? Or like hook up, hang out? Or something like that. I was like, do you want to hang out? Oh, hook up. I did. And you were like.
Coach Alex Ray (1:09:12)
Well, I think the word you said, you used hookup in the message. Yeah.
I was like, which kind of hookup?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:09:23)
And I was like, that's a really fair question. We're in a weird place in our friendship. think we were, it's such a pulled in many directions. Anyways, I have to run. Where can people find you online, Alex?
Coach Alex Ray (1:09:26)
Yeah.
Right.
I make it very well less easy at the moment. Everything will be under the Alex Gay brand very soon. for now, coachalexray.com or heyalexgay.com. Both of those sites will have all my stuff.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:09:54)
Well,
I'm going to put this one out pretty quick because I don't have anything in the hopper and why not? There's no reason to hold on to it. I am pledging to those at home. I am not keeping a schedule with my podcast. I'm breaking all the rules to my friend Arash. You told me in starting my podcast, make sure you keep to a schedule. Ha ha, Arash. I'm not doing that.
Coach Alex Ray (1:10:15)
you so much for having me. It's been a treasure, a treat. I love it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:20)
If you all want Alex to come back, just like any guest, let me know. Send, you can send your feedback over at IntimacyLabpodcast.com. There's an actual form there. You don't even have to, you can do it anonymously. You can just be like, my God, I want more Alex or whoever. And I would take requests. So.
Coach Alex Ray (1:10:36)
Love.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:39)
Until next time.
Coach Alex Ray (1:10:39)
See you!
