Dating as an Intimacy Pro with Brian Gibney
Show Notes
In this conversation, Michelle Renee and Brian Gibney discuss various aspects of dating and relationships. They explore the concept of nature's order versus culture's order, highlighting the importance of safety and communication in building intimate connections. They share their personal experiences with dating and navigating hookup culture. The conversation also delves into the significance of managing expectations, renegotiating relationships, and embracing adaptability. They emphasize the need for open and honest communication, as well as the importance of defining relationships based on individual needs and desires. In this conversation, Michelle and Brian discuss the principles and practices of dating and relationships. They emphasize the importance of being authentic and transparent in relationships, allowing for self-selection and compatibility. They also explore the idea of embracing all aspects of ourselves and finding partners who accept us fully. Creating intimacy and connection, choosing close relationships, maintaining boundaries and autonomy, and living the work outside of work are also discussed.
Takeaways
Safety and communication are crucial in building intimate connections.
Managing expectations and renegotiating relationships are essential for personal growth and satisfaction.
Labels and definitions in relationships can vary and should be based on individual needs and desires.
Adaptability and open communication are key characteristics to look for in a partner. Be authentic and transparent in relationships, allowing for self-selection and compatibility.
Embrace all aspects of yourself and find partners who accept you fully.
Create intimacy and connection by showing up fully and allowing others to hold space for you.
Maintain boundaries and autonomy, only getting involved when it personally affects you.
Brian Gibney (he/him) is a reformed scientist, forever geek, and ex-circus performer. Now he's helping others as a surrogate partner, intimacy coach, educator, and advocate. He can be found on Instagram at https://instagram.com/brian_gibney_intimacy and at https://BrianGibney.org.
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Intimacy Guide and Surrogate Partner. Michelle's website is https://meetmichellerenee.com and can be found on social media at @meetmichellerenee.
Links from today's episode:
The video that inspired Michelle's poster in her office: https://vimeo.com/468113082/c8711f0dd6?fbclid=IwAR0K51Z1UeleQx8Bc1FdoWscqTcXMvBcDfUx1lL0m4G6ymuPETBRcV7heDA
Wheel of Consent: https://www.schoolofconsent.org/
Polysecure by Jessica Fern: https://amzn.to/45btqQs
Thanks for joining us! If you loved what you heard and want to leave us 5 stars, I invite you to leave a review on your favorite podcast app. If you'd like to ask a question, please use the form at IntimacyLabPodcast.com.
Rough Transcript
Michelle Renee (00:02.562)
Hello. I'm so excited for this conversation. We put it on pause when it came up in a personal phone call between us and decided it would be a really great topic to record so that other people can glean from Brian's personal life experience. So today I'm with Brian Gibney, who I lovingly refer to as my work husband.
We make a lot of professional babies together. So hello, Brian.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (00:35.158)
Hi Michelle.
Michelle Renee (00:36.654)
Do you wanna let everybody know who you are real quick? Even though my hope is that you become a regular in my little circle of like cast of characters that will be joining me on this new adventure. But right now, nobody's gonna know who you are unless they've followed me on, I don't know, many things. But go ahead, introduce yourself, Brian.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (00:58.242)
I'm always happy to introduce myself. So hi, I'm Brian Gidney, he, him. I know Michelle mostly through my work as a surrogate partner and like she said, the various babies that we have together.
But I'm also an intimacy coach. I'm a sex worker. I do a lot of education and outreach and advocacy in the worlds between the talk therapy world and The touch world on a more personal level
I'm not monogamous, I'm kinky, I have been so for a long time, 20, 25 years. And it's taken a lot of different twists and turns over those years, so it's been quite a ride.
Michelle Renee (01:46.126)
So, the, I don't know, a couple weeks ago, I had a friend over and we were cuddling here in my studio because I am incredibly sensually attracted to him. That's a whole nother conversation that I'll probably have in an episode about the difference between sensual attraction and sexual attraction. And I popped out to use the restroom. When I came back in, he said, "'Tell me about this poster "'that you have on the wall of your office.'"
And this poster says, loving relationships, nature's order versus culture's order. And I keep this in my office to remind me to slow down in my work. And so number one at the top in nature's order is safety. Number two is proximity, meaning we get closer together in physical space.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (02:20.536)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (02:43.226)
Three is touch and sex. Four is bonding and love. And then of course, culture's order is exactly the opposite. We move from the bottom up of bonding and love, which I think of as like, I met someone, I create a story about them, I fall in love with that story, right? And then...
Brian Gibney (he/him) (03:04.796)
Right. And your identity in that story, right? Like we are a couple, we are dating, right?
Michelle Renee (03:06.97)
Yes. You've got a whole story about them. And then you move to touch and sex. And you want all this time with them and closeness. And then you're like, but why do I not feel safe? Right. And so much of our work is about creating the safety component. And it feels foreign to a lot of people. It feels so foreign to people because we've gone into this hookup culture.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (03:28.164)
I can't wait to geek out about this.
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (03:36.17)
where I personally, when I was dating, I practiced a lot of one night stands and I have no issue with that kind of relating. But I do wonder now that I have the background that I have, what it would be like for Michelle to date now versus back in say 2014, 2015 when I was really active in the dating world and kind of getting a feel of what does Michelle want post divorce. And
And I don't know what I would look like in the dating world, but guess what? Brian is actively dating and Brian and I have a lot of similarities. I was a self-proclaimed slut back in the day, and I still am mentally. Like, I think that I aspire to a certain sluttiness that I just find myself not acting on for multiple reasons. But Brian.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (04:11.978)
Hello.
Michelle Renee (04:30.678)
when I brought this question to him, because the friend asked, how do you, let me back this up. The friend asked, okay, but Michelle, how does that look in the real world? I know how it looks in your professional world, but how do we go about establishing safety when we meet a new person? And I started to like think about things. And the closest I came to, and you might laugh at this, Brian, was taking our food mandala.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (04:53.525)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (04:57.502)
into a restaurant situation that was the best I could come up with because I'm not in the dating world. And I said, you know what, let me talk to Brian. I'm sure Brian has a great answer for this. And so hence this conversation.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (04:57.748)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (05:11.098)
I don't know if I have a great answer. I will have an answer. I have lots of considerations, lots of like stumbling through things. Before I even talk about this, I do want to say something about what you said before about hookup culture. And I think a lot of people assume that hookup culture is just having one night stands, right? But I think...
Michelle Renee (05:13.622)
You have an answer.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (05:38.79)
Even the folks that are not doing one-night stands, I think it's a different kind of hookup culture. Like they are dating to find a mate, and like you said, insert themselves into that story. So even if it's not casual sex, there is dating into a story. There's dating to do this thing that is subtext to the relationship itself.
Michelle Renee (06:06.842)
Okay, let me preface my comment then. When I was dating, I looked at everything as a one night stand that could turn into something else, right? So both of my, well, I'd say I had three relationships post dating, I did a lot of dating and I did a lot of fucking. But I think I hung out with one guy for like six weeks, it was fun. Second guy was...
Brian Gibney (he/him) (06:08.47)
Yep.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (06:18.831)
Okay. Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (06:27.926)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (06:35.43)
over a course of years as a polyamorous person. I'd say we are still connected in some way, even though I wouldn't consider us dating anymore. And the third one is now my husband. And I will say they all started out as one night stands because I didn't know if anything was going to happen after that. I didn't go into it looking for it to happen, but being open to it. So that's, in my head, hookup culture is interchangeable because that's how I...
Brian Gibney (he/him) (06:50.769)
Mmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (06:57.118)
Okay, okay.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (07:02.026)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (07:02.33)
practiced it. So thank you for clarifying that for others out there.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (07:05.994)
And that's fascinating for me because as someone who identifies as a slut, that's not how I date at all. And I've had this conversation with several of my partners about I am slutty. I like having intimate relationships with many different people and that intimacy may be physical intimacy, sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy. But when I'm dating, I'm not.
I'm not even really there yet, right? And can I just like go into like what dating looks like for me? I think most of the time when I'm introduced to a new person, it is probably through a dating app that I'm on, right?
Michelle Renee (07:42.786)
Go for it.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (07:57.354)
and we match with each other. I am in a relatively small community, so finding other non-monogamous folks. People are usually like, oh, okay, you're non-monogamous, cool, like, we should talk.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (08:15.042)
But people often come to me not with a lot of experience in non-monogamy or identifying as sluts themselves. And they're like, wow, like the stuff that you say on your profile is really bold. I put myself out there right from the very beginning. You know, I identify as a sex worker. I identify as a slut. I say upfront, like I have multiple relationships already.
And when we start to have conversations, when we start to chat, very soon in the conversation, it's like, are you curious about this? Is this something that you have experience in? And like, you wanna find more people in that community so you can find kinship. Just to gauge where people are, where I, like, are we actually operating on the same level?
I've noticed that a lot of people contact me because they're just curious, right? Like I have the long flowing hair in my profile pictures and people are like, oh, you have such beautiful hair. I'm like, buddy, have you read my profile? Do you know what I'm about? And they're like, actually I haven't. I'm like, okay, so Google some things that you see in there that you're not familiar with and then come back to me. I'm like, oh, absolutely.
Michelle Renee (09:35.106)
So this happens on the other side too. I just want to say like, that was my, I mean that's my experience back from the dating apps, but also my experience from like Fetlife or wherever, like people don't read. Even my Cuddlist profile, people don't read.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (09:46.058)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (09:50.602)
Right, I don't know if my experience is really indicative of everybody else's, because I have a picture of like me doing circus stuff. Like, it's, you know, that's not typical. Um, but yeah, nine times out of 10, people do some Googling or I explain like the work that I do, or I explain, you know, ethical non-monogamy and they're like, Oh, peace out. Nope. That's not what I want at all. Cool. Great. Like we have come to an understanding this is not going to be a good match.
And the rest of the people kind of fall into one of two categories, which is like, I'm already in this community, I already have experience in this way of life and this mindset. I just want to meet more people like this, whether we want to fuck or not, right? Or I've never really felt comfortable in monogamy. And I'm really curious about...
learning about your experiences in non-monogamy.
Usually if we've matched at that point in time, there's like an acknowledgement of like some kind of like chemistry or curiosity, right? Like, oh, you're kind of cute. Oh, you're kind of cute too. But when I date folks, it's almost never like, let's bang. Right? It starts with that curiosity. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (11:19.63)
question. Can I pause you? Was that the case before you started doing this work?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (11:27.61)
That's a really good question. And I think I was coming to it organically before I started the work and the work absolutely fast tracked it because I definitely, there was a point in my early non-monogamy where I was like, yeah, let's go out and let's fuck and like, let's jump into it because we're all sex positive people. And that just.
really didn't jive well with who I am as a person, the kind of the shape of the relationships that I wanted. So I messed up enough times to be like, maybe I need to rethink my strategies here. That's not, it's not working out. And it's not that anything in that was harmful or unsafe, but it wasn't really speaking to the kind of relationships that I wanted.
So there's that.
Michelle Renee (12:25.946)
I probably would have got there with enough time. Probably.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (12:28.182)
Yeah. But so, so when I am dating people, when I'm talking about the potential like to go on a date with someone, I'm usually really upfront where I'm like, hey, I would love to meet you over coffee.
And let's see after that, if we want to meet again, get to know each other, if there's chemistry, right? There's always, when you're dating me, there's like this built-in pause button at the end of the first meeting. Even if like the, there's a lot of chemistry. It's like, you're hot, okay, cool. Like we recognize that in each other. Let's see if we feel the same way tomorrow.
Michelle Renee (13:13.238)
I do this in my work, right? It's like we don't renegotiate in the middle of a scene or a session or now you're saying like, you've got a very clear, we're gonna pause and let the hormones chill out and let us get our brains back to baseline and then we're gonna make some decisions.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (13:13.526)
But yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (13:28.187)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (13:33.386)
Yeah, and let's see what we really want, right? Like, are we compatible as far as our relationship goals? Are we just horny and we wanna fuck each other? Like, is one or the other of us coming out of place from a place of scarcity? And that happens a lot when I am dating other people that like, I am not operating from a place of scarcity at this stage in my life. Like, I am fairly poly-saturated.
But often people that come to me are just coming out of long-term relationships or coming off of like a self-imposed period where they're not having any sex or any partners and they are ready to go. So more often than not, I'm the one who's like, okay, let's pause and reassess, which is... Yeah.
Michelle Renee (14:27.258)
So you're going to ask them the difficult questions. It's how I'm interpreting that as like, no, let's actually be upfront and honest. What do you want out of this? Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (14:35.326)
Yeah, and this is something absolutely that I have, that has been informed by my work. Like to ask those questions, to slow down, to like not assume anything, right? Like what kind of relationship style are you looking for? How often do you wanna get together, right? What does this mean to you, right? What kind of place am I gonna hold in your life?
Michelle Renee (14:51.93)
What does this mean to you?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (14:58.827)
And these are things that we talked about in that first coffee. The looks on people's faces. They're just like, what are we talking about? Like you're blowing my mind. And...
whether we decide to meet again or not, almost everybody that I've gone on a date with has been like, I have never had a first date like that. Which I think is pretty cool, right? Like I don't wanna spend a date talking about the weather or small talk stuff, sports teams or what movies we like or whatever, right? Like I'm gonna talk about.
Michelle Renee (15:39.33)
Or the work that we do can really take up a lot of space because people are super curious and then it becomes the Brian show or the Michelle show.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (15:42.878)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so even if I talk about the work, I talk about the work in a way that like brings it back to like, and this is how it informs my relationships, right? This is, or this is what like my life looks like. Do you want to be a part of that? That's a, that's a lot of conversation I think that I have with folks. You know, I have multiple partners. I do this, I do this work. I'm a dad, like
Where do you see yourself fitting into this? And I really wanna have a conversation with them about their lives too. Do they have any partners? If they don't have any partners, like what are they motivated to explore in relationship? And what kind of need do they have? Like I wanna know that in the very beginning too.
Michelle Renee (16:36.386)
This reminds me, do you remember when I had that therapist that wanted to be friends after we ended our client work together and we sat down, I mean after I ran to you and said, okay, Brian, what are the monsters under the bed that I should think about? And we sat down and just had a negotiation. What are we looking for in friendship? And how do you show up as a friend and how do you show up as a friend and is there overlap there? And it felt so mature. Like this is the most adult.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (16:43.34)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (17:02.306)
Right?
Michelle Renee (17:04.814)
thing that maybe I ever done at that point. And so it's so cool to think that you're doing it also on the first date, cause it makes total sense.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (17:06.467)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (17:14.422)
Yeah, yeah. And like it really sets the tone for the rest of the relationship, right? So we got into this conversation about safety, right? Like for me, safety and integrity are completely linked. Like I am showing up in agreement with the words that I am telling you, right? So if in the first date I say, this is how I show up in a relationship, then in the future we get to say, okay, is this actually what we're doing here?
And if they're showing up differently, I say, okay, like we had this conversation before, do we need to reassess the relationship? Do we need to talk about like things are like, our priorities are different now? Or are you finding there are some things that like, maybe you didn't have a lot of self-awareness about? Which happens, right? Like nobody's fault. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so.
Michelle Renee (18:06.922)
We get to change our minds, right? And you don't know what you don't know.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (18:11.87)
Yeah, so like leaving room for that, leaving room for people to evolve, for relationships to evolve, but also like being really intentional communicating with each other about like, this is what I want and need right now, this is what I want from you, this is what I like, this is how I can show off, whether it's my capacity emotionally or time wise. You know, there are some, there's some
partners that I've started a relationship with, they're like, I really want to be your friend. And I could see this developing to something more, but I am in a very asexual part of my life right now. I'm just not feeling that kind of draw. And I'm like, cool. Depending where I am, the conversation might be like, I would love to have you as a friend. Or where my bandwidth is with other partners is like...
I'm leaning into these relationships, maybe I'll have a little bit of time for you, but not a lot of time for you. Right? Like we...
Michelle Renee (19:17.462)
Yeah, I want to make space for the asexual community just to remind everyone that relationships, especially in the poly world, don't have to be sexual relationships, right? So if you were like, I think I have really strong feelings for you. I mean, you would know that on a coffee date, but as the friendship progressed, right? Like for a lot of people in the poly world, that doesn't preclude them from being in a partnership.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (19:24.782)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (19:42.622)
Yeah, and you know, one of the things that I look for when I'm dating is not a romantic relationship, but it's kinship, right? It's like, are we on the same level? Do we have the same values? So even though I'm slutty, like if someone is like, okay, example.
met someone on dating app and went on a coffee date with them and they're a lovely human being. It turns out that we had like run into each other years before and like we're just like, I recognize you. Okay, cool. We went on a couple more dates and had some like fun cuddle dates really enjoyed talking to each other.
did some smooching and then as we are in these early phases of our of our relationship they turn to me and they're like so I think I might be a little bit more queer than I originally thought I'm like cool what does that does that mean for us you know like I don't know it's like okay like do you want to fuck me right now you know like
I don't feel like I need to do that. I'm like, cool, I still enjoy your company. I still wanna spend time with you. Let's just put fucking off the table for now. So we've had, we had like, we continue to have this amazing friendship. I remember the first Pride they went to, they called me up and they're like, I really wanna go butch, right? I really wanna show up as my masc self.
and I have nothing in my wardrobe. And like they were like a very like tall woman or femme person and like they were like, can I borrow some of your clothes? So we like raided my closet and like found a good, a good like masc look for them. Like that.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (21:53.03)
that was as satisfying to me as anything else in the relationship, right? To like see them come out of their shell and see like this is what they are evolving into.
Michelle Renee (22:04.086)
This is where I get hung up on the labels, right? Because I don't identify as polyamorous, but I have my kind of like inner circle of people that would probably fall under some form of partnership in a lot of different ways, right? Like you and I even, we have a very lovely relationship that is primarily based around work, but I know so much about you, you know so much about me. Like,
Brian Gibney (he/him) (22:10.73)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (22:19.475)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (22:33.53)
total inner circle person, lovership of ways, right? That is an old term I used to use a lot back in my early exploration days. Like I get really tired of the labels and I understand why they're necessary. But I also don't live in a, I think about my old monogamous life back pre-current version of Michelle when I was in Michelle 1.0. And like,
Brian Gibney (he/him) (22:35.339)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (22:48.402)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (23:01.014)
It was not a relationship where I was encouraged to have this depth of relationship with my friends. The intimacy, the non-sexual, I'm talking like emotional intimacy that I had, that I have now would never be encouraged.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (23:10.164)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (23:17.782)
Yeah, well that's reserved for your partner, right? Like that's what we're told, that energy goes to that one person in your life.
Michelle Renee (23:20.971)
Right.
Michelle Renee (23:25.802)
Yeah, and I just don't do that now.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (23:27.722)
Yeah, and I like my relationships like there's an ebb and flow between friendship and sexy partner and romantic partner. And at any given point in time, like there might be one aspect of that that's on pause and then like it might get rekindled later or not. We talk about this a lot, like how scarcity and scripts play out in relationships. Like I have like
really in the past couple of years untangled a lot of the scripts. I've unscripted my life, and just being really present with folks and seeing where they are and what we want. I've had
Michelle Renee (24:10.938)
What does it take to be labeled a partner in your world? I'm curious.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (24:13.81)
Oh, oh. So I almost always have a modifier with the partner. It's not just partner. So like, um.
I have in my life someone that is like a, I'm a relationship anarchist, I don't do hierarchy and relationships, that just doesn't fit well with how I like to do things. But I have someone who is probably more looks like a primary partner, or more of a nesting partner or a domestic partner. I have people in my life that are sexy friends, you know, sexy partners.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (25:00.291)
And that feels different from someone that I would consider a lover, right? Where there's that kind of like romantic component.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (25:10.89)
And we often have, like my people and I have these conversations of like, if we are going to identify each other in this relationship, like where would we be? Would we be sexy friends? Would we be lovers?
And it's fun to have those conversations because usually there's a realization of like, oh, how we started off or how we like, when we had this conversation three months ago, I'm feeling a little different right now. Like you started off as a sexy friend and I'm feeling like some lover feelings right now. And then there's usually like some wiggles and like, oh really, is that what you're feeling? And it can just as easily go the other way. I have a lover in my life.
and she uses the term repotting, like repotting plants. Like when a partner doesn't fit in this pot anymore, it's time to give them another pot. It's time to give them another home. Yeah, and it's a...
Michelle Renee (26:12.218)
I love that. I'm going to I'm going to borrow that because that I always say renegotiate, but that just sounds kind of like businessy.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (26:17.366)
But it's, yeah, yeah. And like repotting is like so gentle and like feels like domestic and nurturing. Yeah. Nice, nice. Yeah, so like I had a repotting conversation with this lover a couple of months ago, like eight months ago when I had, I got very sick.
Michelle Renee (26:26.522)
I'm writing it down right now in my post it note.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (26:47.402)
and I was flat out, like barely able to move for like a week straight. And I don't usually get sick like that. And I hadn't asked for her help. I hadn't asked to be taken care of. And that was really hurtful to her. And we had a conversation of like, what space do you think you occupy in my life? Right? It like...
that sounds really harsh, but also like, yeah, and like, what do you think I need, right? You know, it's getting back to Betty Martin's Wheel of Consent, right? Like, you think you're giving a gift to me, what gift do you think you're giving? And is that a gift I really want? Right? And that was a hard conversation. Like she had never had a conversation like this before.
Michelle Renee (27:19.935)
managing expectations.
Michelle Renee (27:35.672)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (27:44.386)
And it pinged a lot of relationship insecurity that she had. And at the end of the conversation, or towards the end of the conversation, she was like, I get it, I'm getting the hint. Like, you just don't wanna be in a relationship with me anymore. I'm like, no, that's not what we're talking about at all. Like, what I'm saying is, I wanna be in this kind of relationship with you. Like, I don't feel the need to have this and this and this component, right?
If you feel the need to have that in that component, let's talk about it. Let's talk about why you feel that need. Because when we first started going out, when we first started being sexy friends, one of the things that was great about our relationships for her was that she was incredibly busy. She's on the spectrum, so she has limited emotional bandwidth. And she's like, great, I get to see you once a week for a concentrated amount of time and not think about it anymore.
But somewhere in the mix, something changed. And my rejection of her gift felt like a rejection of the whole package. So we got to talk about that. I mean, hell, we're still talking about it, six or eight months later.
Michelle Renee (28:44.27)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (29:01.undefined)
Hmm. Ew.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (29:01.291)
But 20 years ago when I started being non-monogamous or when I was a teenager and I started dating, no way I had these conversations.
Michelle Renee (29:11.018)
Yeah, I mean, it's the slowing down factor. I mean, this is like, I'm in my head going, ooh, the title of this episode is going to be like something like what's it like to date an intimacy professional that, you know, a really well, like, I don't want to say all intimacy professionals ever about anything, right? But what's it like to date this intimacy
Brian Gibney (he/him) (29:13.407)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (29:42.48)
The Wheel of Consent background specifically really starts some really interesting conversations with that question of who is this for? And like you said, is this really, you know, who's this gift for?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (29:47.798)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (29:54.578)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I like I often tell partners like I want to unfuck relationships I want to I want to look at the scripts that we have all been taught are normal and be like, why are we doing this? Like why do we have this expectation that we have to do this? Why do we have the expectation that we celebrate anniversaries? Why do we have the expectations that we? You know go out on a hot date night, whatever that looks, you know, like
go to an expensive restaurant, buy some wine, stuff ourselves, and then like, that's what dating looks like. Right?
Michelle Renee (30:29.806)
Why aren't we having sex? Yeah, why the whole dan Savage you gotta fuck first people.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (30:35.05)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and so that comes up in conversation a lot. And so many of my partners, we like have our sex schedule worked out where it's like, okay, my body actually wants sex organically at this time of day. And I have this kind of freedom in my schedule at this time of day. Like let's work within that.
those ranges rather than being like, oh, we have to go out, we have to stuff ourselves first and then we like, then we fuck. Oh, that doesn't feel great. Right, right.
Michelle Renee (31:06.726)
or it's not a date if we don't fuck. Like, yeah, yeah. The expectation thing, and here's the thing I wanna say, is like, I'm a big proponent of everybody doing relationship the way that it works for them. My definition of partnership I've found through, reading other people's books like Jessica Fern and Poly Secure, I had that.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (31:12.471)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (31:33.622)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (31:36.006)
I had a light bulb moment where she asked people to negotiate, do you want this to be an attachment based relationship? And my brain exploded because I was like, people have relationships that aren't attachment based.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (31:50.238)
Ooh, talk to me more about that, because that's like, I'm curious.
Michelle Renee (31:53.19)
Yeah, so attachment to me, this is just completely through my filter of what I remember because my comprehension is shit. I just want to preface this. You may have read the book and had a completely different interpretation, but that like I think of it this way. This is the way I compare it. My San Diego wife, Sara if I don't hear from Sara for two weeks, I don't think anything of
Brian Gibney (he/him) (31:58.05)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (32:22.714)
question of are we still friends? Does she still like me? None of that happens. My partner, Paul, we've spent a lot of time long distance over the course of our relationship. And if I didn't get a good night text from him, I was like in spiral. Are we breaking up? So while Sara is very much in a category where if I was practicing or declaring myself polyamorous,
Brian Gibney (he/him) (32:39.638)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (32:52.15)
Sara would fit as a partner of some sort. But for me, I say, I joke, and this is maybe like, I could work on it in therapy, I suppose, said with a big eye roll, as I love therapy, but also do a lot of my own processing constantly.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (32:54.743)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (33:13.07)
For me, I am very attachment monogamous. And so that's why I don't take, like reading this book was where I went, oh, now it makes sense why I don't take the label of polyamory because a relationship for me feels like it's about where is my attachment.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (33:35.358)
I'm gonna get super geeky for a second about language and stuff like that because when you and I can be using the same word attachment and it can mean completely different things.
Michelle Renee (33:50.202)
Absolutely. We talk about attachment theory. You could talk about the Buddhist and being, you know, away from attachment and things like that. There's so many, like, it's like love means a different thing to everyone. You say romantic. What does that mean? So yeah, that's where I go. But please geek out with me.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (33:52.781)
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (34:00.642)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (34:08.406)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, because I've had these conversations with partners too about like what.
what attachment, what dating, what labels means, right? Because if I say lover, I have a very certain picture, like a picture in my mind of what that looks like. And if I say sexy friend, you know, if I say I'm attached to this person, they all look certain ways. But almost never is that exactly what the people like.
across from me are thinking too, right? So like, when I ask someone like, do you like, how do you feel about, how you feel our attachment is, right? Just like what you were saying, like there are different kinds of attachment for different people in my lives. And I consider all those people attached just with different rules, right? Like not let the rules are ever really static, but like we...
how that attachment plays out is different from partner to partner. So there are, I have satellite partners that I have not talked to in months. And I know that if I were to call up, we would be able to start up a relationship and just be like there for each other. If something shitty went down in my life and I needed to talk to them, they would be there. And vice versa. But like day to day stuff doesn't need to happen.
And like you said, there are people in my life, like if I'm not contacting them on a daily basis, like wow, I feel like I really feel that loss.
Michelle Renee (35:37.347)
Same.
Michelle Renee (35:49.322)
Yeah, it's all language. It's all labels. It's all these, I don't know. I just, I love the depth of relationships that I get to.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (35:51.8)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (35:59.125)
Uh...
Michelle Renee (36:03.534)
develop and nurture and Paul and I have just decided not to use the labels around polyamory. You know, and it's, I joke, this is the way I describe it as my, my poly friends think I'm monogamous and my monogamous friends think I'm poly. And I'm okay being in the gray zone somewhere.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (36:14.719)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (36:27.223)
I think you are very poly in the most academic sense of the word of many loves. There are lots of people that are loves in your life. You're just not fucking them, and that's okay.
Michelle Renee (36:37.215)
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (36:40.958)
I don't even think the fucking part is a part of it because like, I certainly have people that I would call satellite lovers and I'm not in a place personally right now where I'm like stacking them up, but I'm optimistic that things in me will shift as I keep growing and changing. And I'm just in a space where I feel pretty, I'm not, I'm never going to be sexually monogamous like, like to the real, like the regular definition.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (36:48.999)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (37:06.368)
Right.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (37:10.214)
Oh, please.
Michelle Renee (37:11.314)
But I have my own definition of that and it works for us. It goes back to that, do the thing that works for you. And if you're talking about it, like here's a fun example of how easily we talk about it in my household. I was painting last weekend, painting a wall in my bedroom. I think my bedroom is incredibly sexy now and I feel very good getting into bed every night. And as I'm painting, my husband comes in and says, so I'm filling out this application for this play party.
and I have to describe myself. And he comes up with this really intense description of like all these different, you know, code words, right? And I just go, does it feel good to you? Go for it. Like, and he goes, I just love how easy this is, right? I don't even stop painting while we're having this discussion of like, how do you label how you show up in the sexual liberated world or the relationship liberated world.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (37:49.255)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (37:58.218)
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (38:10.022)
And it just doesn't, I don't even pause to like, really like, make a thing out of it. It's just this, yeah, sure, okay. But I gotta get back to like, cutting in this color, right? Like, it's just, it's normal for us to talk about it. And we've never set like a, this is what we are, and we're gonna be this way for the rest of our relationship. We've made a real conscious effort to
Brian Gibney (he/him) (38:20.802)
Right. Right, right. Priorities, priorities.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (38:32.718)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (38:38.474)
renegotiate our relationship on the regular, to check in about how it's going on the regular, that these are not set in stone. This is what our relationship is. It's just permeable. There's an ebb and flow to it.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (38:56.758)
Yeah. And then, ugh, like, looping back to like what we started talking about safety, like that feels safe to me. Like having that freedom to redefine the relationship, it is like a huge weight off my chest. And that doesn't mean I'm not gonna get sad or they're not gonna get sad, right? We can, we're disappointed. Like, we'll fucking handle that, right? But I, but I...
Michelle Renee (39:19.222)
or disappointed.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (39:27.562)
The worst thing that could happen for me in a relationship is that the outward appearance of the relationship doesn't jive with my feelings of the relationship. That feels awful. So like in service to that, I would much rather take those little dings of this expectation doesn't get met, I have a no or something like that.
Michelle Renee (39:40.408)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (39:53.986)
because it just feels so much better.
Michelle Renee (39:56.122)
If you're afraid to be disappointed, you're never gonna have real intimacy because there's always going to be a wall. There's always going to be a mask between what you really want and what you're willing to say out loud.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (40:02.231)
Yeah, it's...
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (40:11.158)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, people ask me, like, what I look for in a partner. And I think they're assuming, like,
Brian Gibney (he/him) (40:23.046)
a certain type of physique or look or like comfort with sexuality or something like that. And like, yeah, like general sex positivity is definitely a big thing in my life. But like...
Brian Gibney (he/him) (40:40.658)
An ability to navigate changes. An ability to be like adaptable. Like those are really the biggest characteristics in a partner that I look for. Like communicates well, self-aware, adaptable. Like has integrity. So their like actions line up with their words as best as they can. You know, those are things that I'm really looking for.
Michelle Renee (41:10.55)
That starts on date one, right? Because you're having that conversation and they're gonna self-select out if that feels overwhelming or incredibly foreign or they are not ready to stretch.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (41:11.958)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (41:17.125)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (41:22.294)
Yep, yep. That usually shows up when people are like, I don't think I can handle you. And I'm like, you are probably right. You cannot handle me. And that's okay. Yep, yep. And people come to me. I'm like gesturing at myself, come to me for this because I do present in a certain way. And they're like, ooh, what a yummy treat.
Michelle Renee (41:29.69)
Trust that, right?
Michelle Renee (41:39.93)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (41:48.146)
I've been there. I got rid of that thought about you, but that's okay. I still think you're yummy in all sorts of other ways.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (41:48.958)
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. But like the people that are.
willing to overlook those warning flags of like this is this is not in alignment with what I want To get to that yummy treat like that doesn't feel good for me
Michelle Renee (42:16.11)
Well, that's not really relating. That's consumption. And there are ways to get consumption, right?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (42:19.222)
No, no. Hmm.
Right, pay me.
Michelle Renee (42:28.322)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (42:28.906)
Yeah, you know, I think as you're saying that, like my... Oh wow, okay, I just made some fun connections. Like the experiences that I had with people who were trying to do that in relationship with me and the experiences that I had with people that were observing me as a circus performer.
And then wanting to interact with me after a show and seeing me as this one little niche thing, this trope, this singular facet of myself, feels very similar.
Michelle Renee (43:08.002)
We are full people that are in touch with all the little crevices and corners of our psyche. At least I think of myself that way as like on a regular basis, I'm touching on some of those spots. And I want someone who wants all of those pieces, the good, bad and the ugly.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (43:11.563)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (43:31.711)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (43:36.226)
Yeah, I don't know if I need someone who wants all of those pieces.
Michelle Renee (43:41.494)
Well, I'm saying they have to accept me for all of those things.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (43:45.055)
Right, right, right.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (43:49.846)
Mm-hmm. Are you best at video? Yeah.
Michelle Renee (43:50.686)
I think that's the beauty of polyamory, right? Is that doesn't have to be complete overlap. The Venn diagram does not have to completely overlap. And I don't even think in monogamy it has to completely overlap. But I do think that I shouldn't have to hide a part of myself to be in relationship. Like I'm a crier. Like I am super in touch.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (44:13.482)
Right, right. Really, I haven't noticed that about you. It's not like that, right? I don't think so. Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (44:17.718)
I'm so in touch, Brian. I don't know if you know this about me. My gosh, if somebody ever cracked into our Marco Polos, there would be like just Michelle sobbing. But if I had a partner that couldn't hold that part of me, we would not be compatible. Even my work relationships, if you can't, if you're uncomfortable with Michelle showing up in all of her different feelings.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (44:35.521)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (44:45.585)
not gonna be a good match.
Michelle Renee (44:46.859)
I'm not going to be safe with you. And I do have people in my life that I hold those parts back from, but I will say that it's their loss because they don't feel safe enough for me to show up fully. And that's how I create my safety. They lose out on a part of me and I would not do that in my dating worlds.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (44:48.95)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (44:59.703)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (45:08.81)
Yeah, same, same. Yeah, it's interesting, like my priorities and the people that I interact with, like I have a lot of intimacy in my life, but relatively small circles, because I don't want to filter myself in that way, right? Like I don't wanna chop off parts of myself because that doesn't really fit in with a relationship.
So I gravitate, like I invest in the relationships where I can show up as my most self. If people can't handle it, I'm like, okay, that's fine.
Michelle Renee (45:48.662)
Yeah, I'm like the ring of a circle or the ring of a tree, right? And sometimes I've looked at it as like a molecule. And those people that I'm closest to are the people that I let them hold space for me. Because otherwise, because I'm a professional, I'm always holding space. And it's a choice if I let people hold space for me. And that is that is kind of how I decide who is in the inner ring or the inner nucleus of my world.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (45:51.499)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (46:01.262)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (46:05.261)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (46:15.606)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I'm very similar.
Michelle Renee (46:25.262)
Hmm. Does that feel like a good spot to wrap this?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (46:34.089)
Yeah, it feels wrappable to me. I think we can...
Michelle Renee (46:35.79)
Do you feel like we've answered the question of how does Brian date?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (46:40.255)
I think so, yeah.
Michelle Renee (46:41.27)
I think so. Yeah. It's so funny. I thought you're going to come in with like, so I sneakily do this little exercise that I learned it. But like I said, you know, food mandala at the restaurant. And one day, you know, we'll figure out how to explain what the food mandala is. But I like that I'm sitting here going, well, duh, of course this is how Brian dates.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (46:56.078)
Yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (47:04.618)
If people want to do exercises, they know the work that I do, I want them to opt in and do it. Right? Yeah, I'm not saying, hey, on date one, let's do this. Right?
Michelle Renee (47:11.798)
Oh sure.
Michelle Renee (47:17.07)
Well, there's a difference between are you worthy, like worthy, that's not the right word. Are you someone who qualifies as a peer or are you someone who should be a client, right?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (47:28.811)
I don't wanna date clients.
Michelle Renee (47:31.182)
I found myself with one of my friends saying, I find myself wanting to fix you, to make you my next project. And so I'm going to not do that. That's my boundary to figure out, right?
Brian Gibney (he/him) (47:38.797)
Mmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (47:44.746)
Yeah, my gift to you is to not put our relationship in this box.
Michelle Renee (47:49.146)
Exactly. I imagine this is what it's like when you try to date a talk therapist, right? Is that my partner and I don't sit at night and do the three minute game or things like that. Now, occasionally we've talked about we should bring it back into our practice just because it's a fun thing to do together, but I don't think of it from a place of, I need to teach you this skill so that we can relate better.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (48:06.734)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (48:16.906)
Right, right.
Michelle Renee (48:17.442)
like I would with a client. And so, yeah, you can't, yeah, I can't show up and go, okay, let's look at food and make decisions on, are you feeling pressured to try this combination of food? Are you feeling excited to try this combination of food? We're hinting at the food mandala here, but yeah, I mean.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (48:34.957)
Right.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (48:40.478)
And I definitely have parties with friends, mixed groups of friends and lovers, where we do stuff like that, right? We have potlucks, we have very intentional food parties, like fondue parties or something like that, where we're doing that. But it is in a very different container than like...
Michelle Renee (49:02.938)
Context
Brian Gibney (he/him) (49:03.878)
Yeah, yeah, I am not doing this to vet you or teach you skills to get into a relationship with me. That's not...
Michelle Renee (49:12.094)
Yeah, I just I have Betty Martin in my head right now talking about the Wheel of Consent and how it is a practice and there should be like a start and stop time. It's like doing like a scene, like a BDSM scene. You want to know when it starts and when it stops because you're just practicing. And I think as a professional, we have to remember
Brian Gibney (he/him) (49:27.104)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (49:38.87)
or I'm gonna say we, I say we, I should say I have to remember that I can't, I do not want to treat my partner as a client.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (49:50.402)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (49:53.182)
I don't want to be treated as a client either, right? But I also...
Brian Gibney (he/him) (49:55.358)
No, I don't want to be treated as a teacher, right?
Michelle Renee (49:59.754)
I also have this background that reminds me to like, Michelle, it's okay to let your partner fail, right? I'm not gonna come in and rescue. I have limits. I have like, I have figured out for myself, the times I will get involved is when it's gonna personally affect me. Otherwise, hands off. I'm not here to nag or give reminders. You know, it's only when I'm being personally affected do I jump in and...
Brian Gibney (he/him) (50:07.958)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (50:20.566)
Yep, yep, yep.
Michelle Renee (50:30.066)
and throw my executive function into the ring to support my partner. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you, Brian. We did it.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (50:34.09)
I love it.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (50:40.554)
Yay, thank you. And I'm sure we're going to have more conversations.
Michelle Renee (50:45.118)
This was fun because I'm thinking I've listened to a lot of interviews with Brian Gibney and it's always about work and it's so cool to just talk about.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (50:52.306)
Right? You don't get Brian's personal life a lot, do you?
Michelle Renee (50:56.358)
This is what I want to do with this is like bring in my circle and talk more on how does our work relate to our personal life and how we navigate the world outside of work. Because I think it's a lifestyle that we live in that we do the work we do and we also live it outside of our work. It isn't something that just shows up when we walk into session.
It's just part of our DNA.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (51:26.454)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (51:30.902)
Because I could not imagine being any other way at this point in time.
Michelle Renee (51:34.326)
Yeah, yeah. And we just get to practice it over and over again. Yeah, awesome. Sometimes we get paid for it. I mean, I think we get paid for it all the time even without it being a money exchange. Like I feel like I'm just practicing all the time and sometimes it's with people that get to pay to have time, right? But I'm always practicing it with everybody in my life. Okay. Have a beautiful one friend. I love you. Mwah.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (51:37.59)
Yeah, sometimes we get paid for it.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (51:45.995)
Fair, fair, fair.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (51:53.164)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Gibney (he/him) (51:56.866)
No. I hope you do too. And I will talk to you later. Bye.
Michelle Renee (52:04.93)
All right, bye bye.
