Client Judy
In this episode, Michelle Renee talks with her client, Judy. Judy discusses how her work with her therapist and Michelle has helped her feel safer in certain situations and has allowed her to challenge her beliefs about herself. She also talks about the importance of leaning into difficult emotions with curiosity and the process of relearning self-worth and self-care. In this final part of the conversation, Judy and Michelle Renee discuss the power of being raw and vulnerable with another person. They explore the idea of rewriting personal narratives and reframing past experiences. They also discuss the importance of physical touch and the role of surrogate partner therapy and cuddle therapy in healing relational wounds. Judy shares her journey of self-discovery and self-love, and expresses deep gratitude for the transformative work she has done with Michelle Renee and her therapist.
Takeaways
Asking for help is a brave and important step in healing and personal growth.
Setting boundaries is essential for prioritizing mental health and self-care.
Childhood experiences, even those that may seem small, can have a significant impact on adult life.
Therapeutic love and support can be transformative in the healing process.
Rewriting stories and reframing past experiences can lead to personal growth and healing.
The triadic model, involving collaboration between therapist, client, and support system, can be highly effective in therapy.
Recognizing triggers and understanding the symptoms of PTSD can help shift one's perspective on certain situations.
Working with a therapist and a supportive touch professional can help create a sense of safety and challenge negative beliefs about oneself.
Leaning into difficult emotions with curiosity can lead to healing and growth.
Learning self-worth and self-care is a process that takes time and patience.
Rewriting personal narratives and reframing past experiences can be transformative.
Physical touch, such as in surrogate partner therapy and cuddle therapy, can play a crucial role in healing relational wounds.
Self-discovery and self-love are essential for living a fulfilling life.
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Intimacy Guide and Surrogate Partner. Michelle's website is https://meetmichellerenee.com and can be found on social media at @meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question, for Michelle to answer on an episode, https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/podcast
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
Links shared in today's episode:
We’re Not Really Strangers Healing Edition https://www.werenotreallystrangers.com/collections/shop-all/products/healing-edition
The_emdr_coach on IG https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7TvzAyMtP2/?igsh=Z2JyMWlna3FtM21t
The Power of Journaling blog post https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/blog/journaling
Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) test https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/03/02/387007941/take-the-ace-quiz-and-learn-what-it-does-and-doesnt-mean
Polar bear shaking off trauma https://youtu.be/xDlR-wl7iFI?si=QffFsOYMTTTG7b2R
The myth of self regulation https://youtu.be/91tUxJq12gc?si=6mTBE9PQAw5_-fIy
Setting Boundaries that Stick by Julianne Taylor Shore https://amzn.to/459NdkW
Complex PTSD from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker https://amzn.to/4e1QfeW
Pitsburg Action Against Rape https://paar.net/
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (00:22)
Hello, welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. I thought I was done recording season two. And then I was talking with my client Judy and we decided to record one last one for season two. So I think I just, I love working with Judy and I wanted this story to go on this season before season three is gonna be different. I've already decided season three is gonna be focused on.
guests that are local to Southern California. And so I needed to do this now because I don't want to wait for season four to have to roll back around to this story. So Judy, do you want to do an introduction?
Judy (01:09)
Sure, my name is Judy and Michelle's amazing. I've been working with her for about a year now and seen tremendous healing and quality of life I never dreamed possible. And so by profession, I am a college professor and I also do a lot of business consulting and public speaking and I'm excited for this opportunity.
Michelle Renee (01:31)
Yeah, it's kind of interesting to even think about having an active client of mine talking about the work. Like I question sometimes like, is this okay? You know, I think the question that often comes up when we talk about our work and we talk about our clients talking about the work is like, can you consent to talking about it?
you know, like, informed consent, you know what you're consenting to. Yeah, and I, and, you know, do you have any thoughts about that?
Judy (02:03)
Yes.
Now, I think that's really important personally and on the professional side, because I think it's important to understand the scope of things, right? And what consent really means like learning about consent and growing in and over the past year and a half has been really significant for me to listen to my yeses and my nos. And I think in every phrase, in every stage, I know in working with my therapist, the consent leads way, I think, to more honest and vulnerability.
Michelle Renee (02:18)
Yeah.
Judy (02:37)
because I know what's going on in the scope of things.
Michelle Renee (02:40)
Yeah, sometimes people ask if we can, like, there's always somebody trying to push a documentary or something about this work, because it's powerful work, and I understand why they want to tell the stories. But too often, they're trying to tell the story from the beginning, and the client not knowing what's going to come for them in the work.
I just don't think can actually consent to having that story told in a public way when they don't know what they're walking into. Yeah. So, little background. I met Judy, what, almost a year ago now.
Judy (03:11)
Exactly, absolutely.
Yeah, it'll be a year, July. So I called you in June and then physically met in July.
Michelle Renee (03:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, so we met, we got to cuddle. And, you know, I don't know if you had any idea at that time where our work would go together, but I didn't. I thought I was getting the opportunity to cuddle with someone who knew more about me than I knew about you. Right? Like, Judy, Judy had found me online and, and was coming out to San Diego and, and scheduled a time to cuddle.
Judy (03:36)
No.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (03:54)
And it was great and our intake call I learned a lot and I was so excited to meet you. And then it just kind of turned into this really, I don't know, wild. I don't even know how to describe it.
Judy (04:07)
Yeah, I found the intake. The intake call was so powerful and significant. Cause even when I got on the call, I didn't, wasn't, didn't have a script or preparation. My heart was just open, you know, to go where it was to go. And it was amazing to feel that level of vulnerability and comfortable with you from the hello, you know what I mean? And a little bit about like, I'm not a stalker. This is how I know you. And, just the profound experience to take those steps.
Michelle Renee (04:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thankfully I'm pretty used to people coming to me and knowing a lot more about me. Like I remember, I remember going to sex geek summer camp in 2015 and I already had a, I had a blog at that time called sex after marriage. And it was kind of a living diary of my explorations post divorce in polyamory and kink and BDSM. And, and I went to camp and,
This guy comes up to me and he goes, my gosh, I know so much about you because I've been reading your blog. It was like my first experience of having that kind of inequality in information a little bit, but I got really used to it. I think I remember the best part was he said, you're just like you write. And I was like, that's so great. Yeah, I think there's not a, I don't think I have like a professional persona.
Judy (05:12)
Right. Right.
Yes, you really are. I would second that. The offensive comes through.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (05:31)
I know people that have a professional persona and to each his own. I don't know how to do that. Maybe I don't know. Yeah, I want to put a content warning before we get too deep into this. My guess is we're going to end up talking a little bit about your history. I mean, we're going to follow your lead, but before we get too deep into it, I want to warn people that are listening that.
Judy (05:37)
Yeah, yeah, I don't either. I don't either.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (06:00)
probably going to talk about childhood sexual assault or at least know what's going to be in the room. It's in the history. I don't know that we have to get into details, but it's part of our work. And I don't know what else is going to come up. I guess I added a content warning to the front of the episode I put out this morning because I realized...
Judy (06:17)
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (06:28)
Talking about weight can be really hard for people and talking about cancer can be really hard for people. And so good news, if we touch on anything else that we think we need to put a little bit of a warning around, we can do that later. But where do we start? I think we're gonna start with a card. Let's stay on path. This is how we always run the show. And I know that will take us in an interesting journey.
Judy (06:49)
There you go.
Ha ha ha.
Michelle Renee (06:58)
It's pretty foolproof. Okay.
What's something you can say no to this week to prioritize your mental health? And what's something that you can say yes to?
Judy (07:11)
The first thing that comes to mind I would say for me is I'm invited to a picnic and it started out as maybe five or six of us and then other people invited other people and it's going to be a much bigger event and I'm pretty extroverted. But the no for me would be I'm going to drive myself instead of go with friends like I initially planned just so I'm able to leave when I feel like leaving. I'll either be excited and engaged or like done. So.
Because I've been with people all week long, engaging all week long, sometimes on the weekend, either tapping out, especially if it's dependent on lighthearted and fun versus conversations. It's like beautiful, but too much right now.
Michelle Renee (07:49)
and you don't know when that's going to hit. Right? Capacity is something I was talking, I went to lunch with a somatic experiencing practitioner here in Escondido and I mentioned the word capacity and she said, do your clients know what that means? And I was like, that's a really good question. So listeners, capacity, how much can you take? Not to the point of tolerating, but how much can you,
Judy (07:51)
Exactly right.
Mm.
Michelle Renee (08:19)
How long can you be present in a really willing and wanting way?
Judy (08:26)
I think you and I have talked about that, just the container section, right? When the container feels full, it's like, okay, I'm good. You know, yeah. Right. It doesn't mean it's bad. It's just knowing yourself and listening. And it's beautiful because then what's next when that container is full, I think it's just as beautiful, you know? Yes. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (08:33)
You can only take so much, especially when you're doing this kind of work.
Yeah.
You gotta go home and digest. Right? I think, so one thing Judy comes, Judy and I work together from long distance. So either I'm traveling towards Judy or Judy's traveling towards me. And figuring out the timing, how much can we do? And sometimes you've been able to have a good break in between our sessions where you can really have time to metabolize. And other times we have to kind of do a,
Do one at night, do one in the morning. Hope that 10 hours in between or something is enough to give a little breathing room. Right, not feel overwhelmed or pushed past our capacity. Yeah, good night's sleep will do that though.
Judy (09:29)
Right.
Yes.
Absolutely. Yeah. For me, journaling has been very helpful and just sitting with it, even if I don't write something, just literally sitting with like feelings or thoughts that are coming up or some memories that might come up. But I think feelings have been significant, you know, to sit with those and then the next day when we're together, just be honest. OK, this is where I'm at. You know.
Michelle Renee (09:56)
Mm -hmm. I expect that second session to be a lot of processing time. Yeah, I think our last time we met together, that second session surprised me because I don't think we did as much processing as I thought we would do. We like accidentally fell into some really big work. We thought the day before was a big day. Yeah. my goodness. Yeah.
Judy (10:00)
Yes.
Me too.
Yes.
Yes. Yeah, no, I 1 ,000 % agree on that one. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (10:22)
Yeah. What's something that I can say no to this week? I already did. I'm going to retrospect this real quick because I thought it was such a...
a good place of modeling. So I am an early to bed person. So I woke up Wednesday morning really early, I have a six o 'clock in the morning meeting every Wednesday morning. And I woke up at 530 in the morning to a text from my son that he was a little distraught, something he said kind of traumatic happened at work last night. Well, he said tonight because he had sent it that night, but I was already sleeping. So as a mom, I'm like,
shit, shit, shit. How do I rescue my son real quick before I have the six o 'clock meeting? But he's still sleeping. He's on the East Coast, but still that's still pretty early for him. So I messaged him and said, hey, I have a meeting. And as soon as that meeting gets done, I'll give you a call. So I call him. And there was just a, there was a scarer at work. Somebody with some mental health issues and a mental health crisis was pretty agitated and.
The reports are that a customer heard him threaten the store. And in the end that evening, he came back to the store and my son and his coworkers had to hide in the back room. And whoo, as a mom, thrilled that you're okay. Also doing that whole like, you know,
whatever you do in those situations, you've got to take care of yourself. You can't worry about what's going to happen to the register. You can't worry about, you know what I mean? Like, and that's, that's where his, you know, first thoughts were is I don't want to get in trouble, right? And, and as a mom, I'm like, I don't want you to lose your life. Right. And so I did the whole, like, gotta beef up the agency, you know, let's beef up the agency.
But then I realized what I really wanted to do is to make myself as available for him as I possibly could that next day, right? He called in sick to work and I called in sick basically. I canceled, I had a client that was in a bit of crisis that morning who was like, can I get a Zoom call with you today? And my first response was, yeah, can we do 10 o 'clock? Even though knowing my brain, like my mind was elsewhere.
Judy (12:34)
Excellent.
Michelle Renee (12:57)
I knew I wasn't going to be able to focus. So then I changed my mind and I wrote back and I said, actually, I'm having a rough day today and I'm clearing my schedule and I'm not going to be able to see you. I'm taking care of myself. And.
she handled it well. And it was almost like a excellent opportunity. I think sometimes with clients, we go through an interesting arc, depending on what your background is. And when your background is kind of needing a lot of parenting, like this feeling of, you know, when you're a kid and you need other people to help meet your needs, sometimes we...
Judy (13:14)
Excellent.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (13:41)
We don't really grow out of that. We get a little stuck there. And so in the beginning, when I'm working with a client, I'm happy to meet a lot of those needs, right? You need the mirroring of my, how I see you, my support, my cheerleader -ness, like I've got you, this is all good. And my job is to help you get better at doing that for yourself. You know my Instagram, I talk a lot about inner child work.
Judy (13:43)
Mm -hmm.
Absolutely.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (14:11)
And like, okay, you want to hear this thing from me, but what if you said that for your to yourself to that inner child, that inner child that really wants to hear me tell them that they're doing a good job or whatnot. And so, yeah, her response was really affirming that she was going to try to take care of herself. And, and it felt so good. It felt like, the best use of a struggle. You know what I mean? Like I did a really good job of modeling.
Judy (14:28)
Excellent.
Absolutely, yes. I do, yeah.
Michelle Renee (14:41)
putting my needs first. It's just hard to do as a helper. You know, we get into this work because we want to help people and you're somebody who needs me, but I need to take care of me. It's like put on the oxygen mask first. I canceled the lunch date that day with a therapist. We had a date, canceled that. I canceled the cuddle session. I knew that...
Judy (14:43)
Right.
I bet.
Yep. Yep.
Michelle Renee (15:05)
I wasn't going to be present with any of those things. I was going to be thinking about my son the whole time. And I just wanted to, I needed to know that if he called, I could answer the phone. And I did that. He called a couple of times and I was able to, to be there for him, even though I'm across the country. So yeah, so that's my no, that was where I use my no really well, but where's something that you can say yes to?
Judy (15:14)
Absolutely.
That's beautiful.
I've been, I've been intentionally working on like trying to meet new people in new circles. And, so just Monday night I did that. I just said yes, to go into this meetup that I had read about, heard about, been invited about for probably a year and a half. And I finally just got courageous and I went and said, yep, I'm going to do it. And I was supposed to be in this other group that night. And I said, you know, not up to it. I had been on line all day with my schoolwork and I was like,
No, I'm not going to do that. And yes, I'm going to do this. And I did. And I surprised myself. I'll be honest with you. You know, it was one of those, I had a very rough weekend last weekend and it was like, I can't believe I really, I'm going to go do this. But I felt in my gut that it was just what I needed to do. Just be with people I didn't even know, you know, and just make some new friends. And we sat and played cards and it was just really chill. But that was a significant yes for me because typically it's like,
No, you can't really do that. No, you know, you need to rest, recover, walk, whatever. And I was like, no, I need to be with people, but not people I know and just meet some new folks. And then I could come and go as I pleased. So.
Michelle Renee (16:43)
Yay, it's the edge stuff. always say yes to ice cream, unless you have a tummy ache.
Judy (16:45)
And I always say yes to ice cream. I'll always say yes. I am hooked on this one frozen yogurt and I'm like, if anybody calls, I'm going, I don't care.
Michelle Renee (16:55)
I would say unless you have a tummy ache, but I'm just thinking of maybe my lactose intolerance. No, I love, I can't say no to ice cream. That's something I can, I'm gonna go future. So I'm gonna be this weekend with a lot of people, because I'm going to Phoenix to see my in -laws. And I think my yes is probably gonna look like a no.
Judy (17:01)
Yeah, me too.
Michelle Renee (17:24)
We always say in cuddle parties saying a no to someone else is a yes to yourself. Right? So I think I'm going to say yes to myself when I feel like I need to hang back and have some alone time. As an introvert, it can get a little much to be with people all the time.
Judy (17:30)
Mm -hmm.
Absolutely. That's great.
Michelle Renee (17:43)
Yeah, so yeses and no-s are pretty interchangeable in the right context.
Judy (17:46)
They are. If it's no to ourselves, it might be yes to them or vice versa. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (17:52)
Yeah, absolutely. Cool. That's a good card. What do we want to share today?
Judy (17:56)
That was. I enjoyed it.
And just thinking about talking with you, the phrase that continues to stick with me strongly is that I would envision myself saying this at the end, but I'll probably say it a few times is one of the bravest things that I did for myself was asked for help. And I believe for, I would probably say everyone I'll go on record, but just asking for help. And it could be simple ways like I'm moving or any help with this recipe, or it could be major ways like.
this is really hard work and I need some help working through it. Like we've talked about committee, right? Those people that are there to support you in various ways. And there's sometimes I don't know who in my committee I even need help with, or I don't even know what help I need. I just know I need it. And so just being vulnerable and doing it. But I don't know, I've really, really been pondering that a lot. I've had some conversations with friends about that. Like that is.
Michelle Renee (18:37)
Yeah.
Judy (18:57)
I believe one of the bravest things you can do. And I know Brene Brown echoes that a lot in her writings, but it really feels really strong for me, you know, to be able to take those steps. And I was thinking about, when I just reached out to you and didn't know you at all. And it was like, you know, I know, and it felt super, super brave, but it felt super right and super important. And I kind of go along with like being true to myself and.
Oftentimes, one of the phrases I've used in some other workshops I've given is like, what's the most loving thing I can do for me? And it reminds me of the yeses and no-s we just talked about. Because sometimes the most loving thing for me is also the most loving thing for those around me or those I'm with. And sometimes it is just the most loving thing for me. And others might not understand it or approve it, but that's OK, too. But again, it's really sitting with that. What's most loving right now?
Michelle Renee (19:55)
I don't know about you. A lot of, I don't know what the right word is. A lot of times in my childhood, I was forced to be alone, right? Like if I was upset, it was go to your room. And I feel like I've told this story a lot lately. I look back and I think, of course I was angry. Like I would get sent to my room.
I, my room was upstairs and I remember just screaming, blood curdling screams of just like temper tantrum to the moon, right? And I would write on pieces of paper, I hate you. And I would tape them to metal hangers and drop them down the stairwell so that they couldn't be ignored. Right? And,
Judy (20:45)
I don't know.
Wow. Wow. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (20:55)
that becomes your kind of norm. And as an adult, for me, it is edgy to ask for help. I can handle everything by myself. That's what I tell myself, right? But like, for me, like, it's been kind of an agreement with Paul is my first instinct is to push away when I'm upset. And...
Judy (21:20)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (21:22)
years ago we kind of made an agreement that even though that's what feels natural, I know I need to move closer not farther and so even if I'm not ready to talk he's going to be with me.
Judy (21:38)
Wonderful.
Michelle Renee (21:39)
Right, and now it's turned into a lot of like, I don't even have to ask, he'll go, do you want to lay your head on my lap? And I'm like, yes, please. And I'll lay down and he'll just pet me and I cry. And I remember the first time I kind of connected the dots and I went, crap, this is exactly what I do with clients. And I get to receive it too. But so much of what I do is a reflection of what I've gotten from him. I just ordered a new t -shirt today.
Judy (21:45)
Obviously.
Michelle Renee (22:07)
I designed it myself and the front says, therapeutic love heals. Because at first I just put love heals and then I've been reading a lot about therapeutic love or analytic love. And because I'm always trying to figure out what is it that I do, right? And I just, if I could put it in its simplest form is that I love my clients. Right? Because that's what's helped me the most is just
Judy (22:14)
Nice.
Yes. Yeah.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (22:36)
being loved for who I am, in all my mistakes and in flaws, or we like to call them authenticity, right? That to be loved in that space.
Judy (22:39)
Right.
Yeah.
Right. And I think being met right where you're at, you know, like you've shared some of your stories with Paul. And that's one of the things that I, that feels so alive to me when you share those stories, like how present, but you allowing him to be and open for it and asking for it, you know, that awareness that you have and just that vulnerability, you know, it takes to do that. And also, I know for me and my work with you, just the safeness.
that feels and I'm grateful because I can't make that. I mean, there's been wonderful people that I just don't feel comfortable with. I can't explain it. I don't know why, but so no. And so.
Michelle Renee (23:33)
wonder how much of it's because I've been there. Do you know, I mean, I think that this again, having my lunch date yesterday with this somatic experiencing person we were talking about, I don't think anybody gets into this kind of work without some kind of background that brought us here. Right. But I just feel very fortunate that in my work,
Judy (23:37)
Sure, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (24:00)
I mean, I've fucked up in years past of how to bring my own experience into the space. I've gotten way better at when it's appropriate and when it's not. And stopping myself and asking, who is this for? And me telling the story, who is it for? Because I got great advice years ago that when you feel like saying something, like it's like in an interaction, if it's like, I feel this urge, I have to inject this statement.
that a lot of times we probably just need to say it to ourselves. So I will pause and like run it through my head for a second and be like, okay, is this helpful?
Judy (24:33)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (24:43)
Why do I feel like I need to say this thing? And so sometimes with clients, I'll say, okay, I want to tell you a story. I think, I think it's going to be helpful for you. This is why I want to say it. I want to say the thing I'm about to say, but yeah, I feel very fortunate that that gets to be part of my work is like, look, I'm just, I'm just ahead of you. I've really haven't had the exact same experience you had, but I've been doing my own work and I'm still doing my own work. And
Judy (24:46)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (25:11)
Yeah, sometimes I'm still struggling.
Judy (25:14)
Sure, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, back to the point you made initially with this. I think one of the things that I thought about was that's why the asking for help is so monumental for me because I always believed and I still struggle a bit with it. I should be able to handle it. Like, what do you expect? You know what I mean? That was one of the phrases I grew up with. Like, no, like you should be able to handle this. And it's I think because of the background of what I've experienced.
Michelle Renee (25:15)
I can feel it.
Judy (25:43)
I feel way off if I ask someone for help. Like I blew it. You know what I mean? I blew it somehow. And that was a really hard thing to work with. I worked with my therapist extensively in that. And I think that's one of the things that opened the door, you know, because when I reached out for help to my therapist, that was a huge step. But I knew I was at a really tough place of self -loathing where I didn't know where else to go or what to do.
And I knew this was bigger than me, much bigger than me. And I'd worked on it for a number of years in different formats and venues, but nothing. And so it was really, really hard, but really important. But like you were saying, like what we were raised with are those tapes or those phrases of people near and dear to us and kind of how they, I know for me, vibrate sometimes. You know, we show up in different ways, I would say, you know, in my thinking.
that end up being really, whoa. And so to me, it's like I've learned in my work, okay, like either where's the evidence that this is true and something I can and should be able to handle. And then for the longest time I started by just taking the word should out of my vocabulary. I just took should out and it was like, no,
Michelle Renee (27:04)
Let me pose another thing. This just came up on my Instagram the other day. I'll back up a little bit. I'm going to tell a little bit of a story. Speaking of going to Phoenix, last time I was in Phoenix was Thanksgiving and Paul and I were in the car. We were driving around the state, doing a bunch of like reliving some childhood memories that I had and it was really fun. But we're really good at having deep conversation when we're driving. And I was sharing with him about a...
journaling exercise that's supposed to actually been proven to improve your immune system. And I asked him, so what three traumatic events, like give me three traumatic events because the instructions were like don't necessarily start with your most traumatic event, pick a smaller one to start this writing exercise. And he goes, I don't really have any.
Judy (27:50)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (27:59)
And I was like, instant judgment I had about him of like, are you some kind of psychopath or something? Like, how do you not have traumas? And he said, I think the thing that comes to mind is how many people have I hurt?
Which is...
to traumatic it itself to think about, I guess, if you feel like you've been hurting people. Anyways, I was talking to my colleague, Brian Gibney, on the way home from Phoenix, because we have a Monday call every week. And I said, my god, let me tell you this thing that Paul said. Can you believe that he doesn't have any trauma? And he said to me, Michelle, what if Paul doesn't hold on to trauma the way that you do?
Judy (28:21)
Yeah, right.
Michelle Renee (28:46)
And I go, my God, is this what it's like to not have an ACEs score? Are you familiar with ACEs, adverse childhood experiences?
Judy (28:48)
Wow.
Yeah, I'm familiar with it. Way back in the day. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (28:58)
I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast yet, but I'm going to put a link to it in the show notes because Gabor Mate talks a lot about this in that the higher your adverse childhood experiences score is, the more health issues you will have in your life. So I'm on Instagram and I think I probably put this in my stories. I don't think I...
saved it, but I'm going to go find it and maybe I can even play with inserting it into the video or no, we're not doing video. Maybe I can insert the audio into this interview.
Judy (29:34)
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (30:35)
And what does trauma mean? Right? Let's just do a little refresher course here. Trauma isn't the thing that happened. It's how our body stores it. Right? And a lot of talk is about if you go through something traumatic and you don't have a support system, you're in it alone. That is where it kind of settles in. Right? It doesn't get moved. Animals shake it off.
Judy (30:43)
Absolutely.
Right.
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (31:01)
They literally shake it off. We use that term, right? We used to use that term. I feel like who had the... There was a song, Shake It Off, Taylor Swift, right? Like, there's, I think they're really disturbing videos. I watched a video one time of a polar bear gets tranquilized or dart. And when he comes, because they're tagging him or something, when he comes back through, he violently shakes to release that trauma. And we don't do that.
Judy (31:09)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (31:30)
And we're learning techniques to be able to do that, but it's not instinctual for us. You know, and so, so trauma isn't what happened. It's how our, our body or memories store it. It's not what they say. It doesn't come back as a memory. It comes back as a feeling or a, yeah, I know. There's so many little one -off phrases around how to describe trauma.
Judy (31:33)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Yes, absolutely.
Michelle Renee (31:58)
But I'm also a firm believer that it doesn't have to be like these big T traumas, right? I remember Gabor Mate, who I just love him. You'll hear me say his name five million times. He'll say like, it could be just something that should have happened that didn't happen. So we think about nurturing and a lot of us are like, well, yeah, I mean, our parents kept a roof over our heads and we were fed and blah, blah, blah. But were you emotionally nurtured? Right. And those things.
Judy (32:03)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (32:28)
The lack of those things can give you some complex PTSD symptoms.
Judy (32:34)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's interesting. You should bring that up last night in my journal. I was looking at it real quick. And one of the things I wrote last night was how me as the adult was really feeling aware that I was feeling forlorn and realizing that the grade school and high school, Judy, like the younger ages and me was feeling abandoned. I was like, wow. You know, it was it was.
And it was interesting for me just writing that and putting it out there helped lessen it a bit. But I was just so aware of what I was feeling. But to have that in the little girl in me feel the abandonment, but yet for the adult, it was forlorn, and how it felt like it was mimicking each other. Different words, a bit of a different experience, but very similar in terms of how it made me feel in my body.
Michelle Renee (33:31)
Yeah, so many feelings are familiar.
Judy (33:33)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Michelle Renee (33:35)
I've done that excavation of trying to, I like, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's necessary to do this. My brain really likes to connect the dots. And when I get that, this feels old. I need to figure out what its origin story was. And as soon as I make that connection, it's like everything in my system just calms down. And I'm like, okay. Now it makes sense. I can move forward.
Judy (33:44)
Me too.
Right. The lineage, as I said.
Michelle Renee (34:04)
And then I've been really fortunate, one that comes to mind specifically, I think I've talked about it on here, has never come back. I used to get this like repetitive critic in my mind after sex would tell me that my partner was going to abandon me. And then I figured out, like I felt young and you know, my husband said, because I said it out loud to him because I share everything out loud.
Judy (34:25)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (34:34)
I'm very transparent. And I was like, you need to know this thing that always comes up in my head. I haven't shared it with you until now. And he's like, well, that doesn't make a lot of, I mean, it doesn't, it's not make sense. It's not accurate to our situation. Right. And he goes, do you think this has something to do with your ex -husband? And I said, no, I feel younger than that. Right. And I was able to take it back to like my first boyfriend. Yeah. And, and, and I,
Judy (34:57)
Hmm. Yeah. I remember you sharing about that. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (35:03)
And I just, I love the fact that that story doesn't come back for me now.
Judy (35:08)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (35:09)
So just getting to complete that.
Judy (35:11)
Yes, absolutely.
Michelle Renee (35:15)
Do you want to talk about any stories that we've been able to rewrite?
Judy (35:20)
boy, where do I start? Yeah, I know. Yeah, I feel like there's so much there, even as you were talking, like the most recent one that I haven't had a chance to share with you yet. And, and I really do. I know you've talked previously, I think on some of your podcasts about the triad model and how powerful and significant. And I feel for me, that's been winner winner, you know, in so many ways in the.
Michelle Renee (35:23)
Well, I don't know where you want it. I don't know how much you want to share, you know.
Yeah. For the people at home real quick pause. Let me just pop in. It's like pop up video. I don't know if you ever watch a VH1 pop up video. Triadic model meaning I work with Judy's therapist. So all of us are a team. The three of us are a collaboration and there's nothing that happens that we're not all on board with. Right? Not that I not that I pause a session and call up your therapist and say, Hey, I'm about to do this thing. But
Judy (35:51)
Mm -hmm.
yeah.
Perfect.
Michelle Renee (36:17)
But we have a general sense of each other and feel that there's an open door to talk to each other about things.
Judy (36:22)
Right, right. And before you and I meet, we meet the therapist, the triad model, we all meet together before, you know, that, and then sometimes after or exchange emails. Yeah, absolutely really important. But I didn't get a chance to share this with you, because I try to keep you in the loop, but this just happened Saturday night last weekend. I was at a friend's, me and another friend, there's a couple of us that are like friends from high school youth group days, and we get together.
Michelle Renee (36:33)
Yeah.
Judy (36:50)
whenever we can, so like once a month or a few months. And so this one friend invited us over for dinner. And so we're sitting there in a living room, just chatting. And she goes, I wonder what about on the balcony and have dinner? And it was three floors up, right? And one of the beautiful transitions I've seen happen within me is for the longest time, I have this huge list of what I thought, well, that's just who I am, or that's just because of, or this is just how it is, or it's me. You know?
how I was raised, whatever. And so many things I've been learning in my work with both you and my therapist is, no, that's the PTSD talking, right? And this was one of those situations. I had actually two of those situations happen that I was like, wow. And one of them very specifically for me was she said, well, why don't we go sit on the patio? And I didn't think anything of it. You know, we sit out in her patio and.
table and chairs are there, we take our food out and again, we're three stories up and I sit down and I'm eating and you know, we ended up going back in because I think some mosquitoes or bees showed up and we came back in and I just sat there for a minute and I actually went to the restroom because I was like, my gosh, like the PTSD response would have felt I have to figure out a plan. So if this would collapse, how would I be safe?
How could I help everyone else be safe? And I'm not a doomsday. I'm like very much the glass is half full kind of personality. But in those moments, movie theater is another perfect example. And again, I bet it was about six months ago. And I do believe it's, for me, I see it two different ways. It's the EMDR work in therapy, working through some issues, and then also the safe place in working with you.
and combining those together have been so significant. And like I was at a movie theater and I'm like, why do I always have to sit in the very back row on one of the runner right on the very back row, either on the right or the left. I always want to see exits and entrance. I want to see who's coming in. Are they packing? Got like all this kind of stuff. And I never realized how commonplace that was for me. And yeah, there's wisdom.
a little bit in that, but for me, I knew it was more of a PTSD response. You know, am I safe? Do I have a plan? And it was over the top, but it didn't give me anxiety. It was one of those analytically, okay, if this happens, I can go there and there. Okay, I'm good. Let's enjoy the movie and I'm done. But my analytical needed to feel safe.
Michelle Renee (39:28)
Well, it's just like going into a restaurant. I always ask who I'm with, where do they need to sit, right? I set my office up to make sure that if you lay on my bed a certain way that you can make sure that you can see the door, right? You can choose to put your back to it, but that's something that usually people do sometime in the work as part of their work.
Judy (39:33)
Mm -hmm. That was my next one.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (39:58)
to experience that feeling and what if they can do that.
Judy (40:00)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's very, very similar to that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And for me, though, it's just like, I feel like, yes, my lens has changed, but I think in a very like beautiful is the only word I can think of how it's changing from the inside out. You know, like I've had that experience where I went out with a friend I've had for many, many years and we went out to lunch and she knows by now I have to sit right, see the door.
Michelle Renee (40:07)
Yeah.
Judy (40:29)
And the way we walked in, she sat on that side and she looked at me and said, you okay with this? Because my back was to the door and I thought, wow, I didn't even realize that. I'm really okay. And I do think one of the things that was really significant, Michelle, was it was actually in July when I did the first cuddle session with you and I'm laying there and my back is facing your door in that room. And I went, my gosh.
Because no way, especially our first session, new place, new area, new person, no way like that. The self -protection, you know, because of all that happened to me when I was young, it was like, no, no, no, like my body, my mind automatically goes into that self -protect mode, care for myself. You know what I mean? And so very significant. And I was like, I remember telling you that and the tears were running down my cheeks because I was like, my back is to the door and I didn't even like.
Michelle Renee (41:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Judy (41:26)
think about it, realize it, or panic about it when I noticed it. I was able to take a deep breath and realize, I feel so safe here. And my analytical was like, OK, that makes no sense. But my body was saying, how deeply I feel this.
Michelle Renee (41:40)
Yeah, for the people at home, you had worked with a cuddler before that. So this is not your first cuddle, like cuddle therapy session. Yeah. And you have a really somatically based talk therapist. Like you have had years of work getting to that point.
Judy (41:47)
Mm -hmm.
Correct.
Yes.
Absolutely. Because even in... No. No. No. Right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (42:06)
You didn't walk in for session one and be like, wow, I feel so safe with you. Like, I'm not magic. Like, I'm here to help you learn how to trust yourself and put as little up against that. Like, I have, I like to think I have a really lovely nervous system. I'm really mindful of, like I said, how I have my space set up and.
You know, there's something I think because I think because of my own history, I just I really I'm very careful. I'm very protective. Yeah.
Judy (42:42)
Absolutely. I appreciate that. Right. That trauma informed portion is powerful. And it was, and I could probably clarify that it wasn't like it was magical when I walked in and I felt okay. Like going out on the porch or sitting in the movie or meeting my friend for lunch or meeting with you for our first session, how my body is beginning naturally to not send out that warning sign or that type of feeling.
And I'm only beginning to notice it also. I think two things are happening. One is I'm noticing it, but also the awareness in spaces, how that can really, really happen and how, how healing it is and how beautiful it is. And I can't explain it. Like.
Michelle Renee (43:24)
It's self -soothing. It's also a combination of still co -regulating. Like, I just looked up, I wanted to find this interview from, I'd heard a few years back about the title of it was called The Myth of Self -Regulation. And it was, you know, we went through a period of time where hyper -independence was the goal kind of thing. Like, you should be able to regulate yourself.
Judy (43:26)
Yeah.
Right.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (43:54)
Right? You should be able to self -regulate. And what this therapist was talking about was that what if you're never actually self -regulating? You're always regulating with the memory of someone else. Right? So the idea that, you know, you can still connect with me even when we're not in the same space. And I know you've done that, you know, quite a few times. I love that.
Judy (44:05)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Michelle Renee (44:24)
idea that we're never alone. Even when we're alone, right? Who do you have that is your go -to? And I remember having this question like, who cared for you? Who nurtured you as a child? I don't have a memory of somebody really like holding like scared, upset little Michelle.
Judy (44:29)
Mm -hmm. It's powerful. Yep.
Right.
Michelle Renee (44:50)
Like I just said, I was sent to my room and told, you know, I'll give you something to cry about and what have you. Even my mother, I don't remember being the nurturing. And some of that might be my sister, my middle sister was born like a year and seven months after me. So I know I've talked to my therapist with this about like that being an abandonment for me because I wasn't done being, you know, having that kind of care as an only child, you know, like.
Judy (45:16)
Right. Right.
Michelle Renee (45:19)
As soon as I could talk, I was like, send her back. So whether I got the nurturing or not, I don't remember it. Yeah. I think we've talked about that.
Judy (45:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sure. Yeah, I remember it with my grandma. I didn't mean to interrupt.
Yeah, yeah, my grandma died when I was eight years old and that's, I don't remember it past then at all. Yeah, and I was significant and before, and it wasn't all the time, but I knew there were moments, you know, I could lay her head in my lap and she would just stroke my hair and that's it. Like I don't have any memories of that with my mom or my dad.
Michelle Renee (45:42)
Yeah.
Those are life -saving people. In my work with especially survivors of childhood sexual assault, when they can report a significant adult in their life,
Judy (45:57)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (46:12)
it makes all the difference in how they've managed through that kind of trauma. Yeah.
Judy (46:18)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (46:22)
I'm glad you had your grandma.
Judy (46:24)
Yeah, yeah, and that's one thing when we did our first session together, I think I mentioned that to you, like, my gosh, like, and I don't remember ever having that type of a feeling like her nurturing presence felt present in that room. And, you know, I've never experienced that before, ever. And it was just a really beautiful moment. And,
Michelle Renee (46:51)
Yeah, that's what I love about, I don't know, I wasn't a, I don't know if that's true. I'm gonna say I wasn't a very nurturing mom, but I remember my oldest, my kids are eight years apart, my oldest, every night we would sit in the recliner together and, you know, watch TV or whatever. And then I got pregnant with my second one and I remember when I had him, that all stopped.
Judy (47:10)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (47:21)
And then I think that my second one never got quite as much of that for me. At least I don't feel like he did. And so it's a little interesting to now be a professional nurturer.
Judy (47:26)
Right.
Mm, I bet.
Michelle Renee (47:33)
There's a part of me that kind of feels like, I mean, maybe my kids feel like they got the short end of that. At the same time, I think the only reason I can do it now is because I don't have kids at home. Like having kids was hard for me. Like I think, I think I'm undiagnosed autism and ADHD and I've been watching some TikToks about moms with autism, autistic moms, I should say.
Judy (47:46)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (48:03)
And there's a commonality in a lot of them of like the sensory overload of having children. And I'm trying to like process that for myself of like, I mean, maybe that's why it was hard for me to be a really.
Judy (48:09)
Mm -hmm. I've heard of that.
Michelle Renee (48:21)
I don't know if engaged is the right word. I guess I have a lot of regret that I wasn't more, yeah, I wasn't more present with my children when they were younger. I've made up for it now. I mean, I don't look and say, it's affected our entire relationship. But I do have that feeling of like, wow, I wonder what it's like for my kids to have a professional mom. And maybe they have feelings that I wasn't that.
Judy (48:28)
Maybe it's fully present. Fully present.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (48:52)
that's soft and comfy for them. I don't know. Can't do it over. So I'm glad I can be soft and comfy now.
Judy (48:56)
Right. Yeah.
That's right. Absolutely.
And you are. Yeah. I think to the other thought that came up a little bit ago was in my story, not believing I was worth being helped. You know, when I was saying, well, I need to figure it out. And that's I know that's where that came from. You know, my my self worth and the self loathing was so significant for me that I didn't believe I was worth it. And that was years of believing that way.
Michelle Renee (49:08)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Judy (49:33)
and seeing myself that way in circumstances that echoed that, you know, because of how exactly.
Michelle Renee (49:38)
How could you not? Like, I think if I know something, and maybe somebody will tell me I'm wrong, but I think when you come out of childhood abuse...
sexual, child sexual abuse. I can't speak for any other, because I haven't worked with it so much. I don't know how you come out of that with an intact self -esteem and self -worth. Like, I just, those two, it's, it's hard to come out of childhood with that in general, in the best of circumstances, right? Because there's so many things that can affect that. But in that, in, with that history.
Judy (50:04)
Right.
Exactly, because that's what you know. That's what you know.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (50:24)
Yeah, that's just where I have so much compassion for my clients that make it to me, right? Because I just think it's so brave.
Judy (50:25)
Epsilon.
Yeah. And I know in my work with you, I feel like the groundwork with my therapist was, I'm worth being helped. You know, the first year of working together, we just did challenging belief worksheets for the first year. And now I look back and I'm like, gosh, that made so much sense because how could I do the EMDR work with not doing that, right? How could I, if everything...
If I didn't challenge some of those beliefs, like where's the evidence, where did they come from? And I address those things. And like one example would be if I start crying, I'll never stop. I was convinced if I started crying, I would never stop. And nobody could tell me different. And yeah, but I didn't know that. Right. It was like, I was embarrassed to admit it. And I sat with my therapist early on and I said, yeah, but you don't understand if I start crying, I'll never stop. And she's like, yeah, other people have mentioned that. And I'm like,
Michelle Renee (51:15)
Mm -hmm.
I think that's really common.
Yeah.
Judy (51:34)
No, no, no, that's me. Like that's who I am. Right. And then what I began to realize was she gave me this whole biological explanation as to scientifically why that is not physically possible. And now I look back and that soothed my analytical part of my brain. Right. Because I'm very analytical also. And I wanted to understand it. So that gave me evidence that, no, it's not possible. And understand that I really, really feel that way.
Michelle Renee (51:35)
Right.
Judy (52:03)
And I see how that gave me the groundwork. And it was a real beautiful tool that came into place to move forward with. And then it helped me. I know we talk about the word titrate or microdose because the other thing I believed very strongly was I wasn't worth being held or being hugged. And I had no evidence that.
Michelle Renee (52:11)
Yeah.
Judy (52:29)
spoke to me and made me feel that warm and fuzzy inside. yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, I remember. It was like, no, I don't remember growing up that way. I know I've shared one of my very difficult memories was being sexually abused by my dad and like, you hurt me. Now hold me, you need to hold me. And I'm telling you, the work you and I have done on it has, I believe like calmed.
my system in some ways and gave me evidence that no, I am, yet I'm still warming up to that. You know, it's all a process happening because, okay, I am worth being hugged and I am worth being held. I'm not going to disqualify myself, nor do I want to, but what's that look like? You know, and just feeling safe that way and taking those steps. Does that make sense?
Michelle Renee (53:04)
Yeah.
It reminds me, I know you and I are reading Setting Boundaries of Stick. And there is, I'm sure I outlined it, let me find it. Stephen Porges, I think was the person that, no, Dan Siegel.
Judy (53:29)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (53:44)
I thought I just found it.
I'm going to take a second and try to find it because I do want to bring it into the space because I thought when I read that I thought I think this is something clients need to understand. Like they want to know how long this is going to take. Right.
Judy (53:49)
Yeah, no problem.
Sure, absolutely. Or just because I know that and I believe it, now what's it look like to integrate that or envision that in myself or see that for me? It grows, I believe it. There's a necessity for the growth and the getting used to it.
Michelle Renee (54:15)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, I'm not finding it. I must not have highlighted that when I went through and read it in my book, which is so weird to me. no, here it is. Ha ha. If you say you can't, it'll be there. Okay, it only takes three to four weeks to develop a practice, but it takes two years or more of these practices to transform your brain in a permanent way so that it feels natural and second nature to function with all of your boundaries intact.
Judy (54:31)
Thank you.
Well said.
Michelle Renee (54:49)
And I look back, I've been, this is the 10 year anniversary of my liberation from my first marriage. That's what I'm calling it. And there's been many stages of Michelle. So I joke that I'm in Michelle 5 .6 or something like that right now. And I think it's only been in the last couple of years that a lot of these things have started to feel more natural. Like I found myself worth.
on MDMA in 2019. So that's five years ago and it feels like I've always had self -worth. Do you know what I mean? Like I've said to Paul, wow, when I have clients that really struggle with the self -criticism and things, it hurts as someone who loves and cares for them. And I said to Paul, how did you put up with me?
Judy (55:25)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (55:48)
What was it like to love me like that? Because it doesn't feel that way now. And...
Judy (55:50)
Okay.
Yeah, you're right. It's taken me a couple of years to be able to identify that critic's voice because it sounded the same because it was. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (56:02)
Yeah. Now when the critic shows up, I'm much more like, where did that come from? Because it's not so repetitive. Like when it's the norm to be critical of yourself and others, that's the norm. And my mind is a safe space for me now. And so when that shows up, I can go, I see you. What's that about? And the book Complex PTSD from Surviving to Thriving says that that's an emotional flashback.
Judy (56:09)
Good night.
and
Exactly right.
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (56:33)
And so then I can go back and go, where did that, like, where does that come from? Whose voice is that? Whose message is that? I don't hear voices so much. So for me, it's like, where did that message come from?
Judy (56:37)
Right.
Right. Yeah, I think you said it so powerfully in that phrase, what is that about? Because in my growing up and in my high school college years, marriage years, being a Catholic cult for a while, I mean, a true cult, I'm not saying Catholic is cult but the cult I was in, it was formed all around that. And my goodness, like, excuse me, thinking that phrase, like, what is that all about? So when things come up like that now,
I used to dismiss those hard feelings or maybe anger from those days or sadness from those days or even some doubt or confusion or whatever. And I'm learning, okay, if that icky feeling starts rising in me, pausing and saying, what's that about? Right. As opposed to, that's not good. I'm getting rid of it. You know?
Michelle Renee (57:33)
Be curious. Yeah, I think curiosity is not the same thing as judgmental.
Judy (57:35)
Right.
No.
Michelle Renee (57:43)
And even like, it's one of those great like tips for dealing with other people. It's like, rather than asking like critical questions of your partner, what if you frame them as curiosities?
Judy (57:49)
Right.
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think, I don't know about you, but over the years I learned to just, dismiss or pushed down those hard feelings, tears weighed on when I was young. I have a vivid memory of four years old and I remember laying in the dining room, sitting in the corner, just crying. And I'm don't remember what I was crying about. I'm sure something I wanted, but I was just crying. And I remember my mom said these words to me.
Michelle Renee (57:58)
right? And we can do that for ourselves too.
Judy (58:27)
She said, if I cried like that when I was your age, I would have been hurt. I would have been beat. And somewhere inside of me, I was not afraid she was going to hit me or get upset with me about it. And it was so interesting to work through this and see this. But I swear I was like four or five years old. And I remember so clearly thinking, I don't want to ever say that again because it made my mom sad. I don't want to make her sad. And so I grew up not.
crying because it would make her sad. And that just became a way of life for me, not crying, you know?
Michelle Renee (59:05)
Yeah, if I could have everyone understand one thing, it would be as kids, everything is our fault.
Like that's how we internalize everything. Like we have that much control. Somebody said like kids are totally egotistical, right? In the fact that they think that everything is happening because of them. They don't have the capacity to understand that it's not. And we're at a young age and that is when we decide how the world functions. Right? And so that's our framework and that's what we're doing in my space
Judy (59:21)
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Absolutely. And that's our framework.
Michelle Renee (59:45)
and in talk therapy and all these different modalities, right, is hopefully we're coming to a place where we can see a mismatch in what we think the world works based on us as a little kid versus now where we can question that and go, wait, that's not real. And that's not your mom's fault. Like, you know.
Judy (1:00:02)
Mm -hmm.
Yep, absolutely.
Right. That was her lived experience.
Michelle Renee (1:00:14)
We can never walk through parenting and not fuck stuff up. Especially if you don't have a psychoeducation to understand how, like, how am I supposed to have kids that are well regulated when I'm not well regulated? Nobody ever taught me that. Or I wouldn't have been having kids when I was 20 years old. Not that I had, I mean, my first plan wasn't planned anyways, but my thing being like,
Judy (1:00:20)
Mm -hmm.
Right, absolutely. Right.
Absolutely.
Right. Right.
Michelle Renee (1:00:42)
we're not learning what it takes to be a good parent in the way that I think we should be.
Judy (1:00:49)
Right. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me think about what I was saying about the emotions and when things come up, you know, that feel crunchy, you know, to the past, whether it was parenting or choices I made or whatever it was, whenever those feelings come up and there's something that like, gosh, I feel really angry about this in my mind for a number of different reasons. I would want to like, what's the opposite of anger?
you know what I mean? Or what's the opposite of sadness, you know, happy, and I'm just going to make myself be happier, do things that make me happy. And what I began to realize was I wasn't addressing. And so any emotion that felt negative to me, and I had a broad scope of what negative felt like, then all of a sudden, and one of the greatest gifts I've learned from my therapist is sit with that. Like it's telling me something. It's there for a reason. It's coming up for a reason.
And so if I'm feeling scared, I know in some of the work you and I have done, it was like, gosh, that feels really scary. Will you hold me? Those type of things that come up and realizing, okay, wait a minute, instead of dismissing that or self -judging that, why don't I just sit with that and like you said, lean into curiosity. What's curiosity really look like with that?
Michelle Renee (1:02:02)
What if certain feelings weren't bad? Right? Like in my household growing up, anger was really welcomed.
Judy (1:02:05)
Exactly.
Michelle Renee (1:02:12)
I guess joy was I don't know any householder joy is not welcome. I suppose there's some
grudgingly person that doesn't want to have joy in their life. But you know sadness and fear were definitely not welcomed in my in my house growing up. So like if you have a judgment about those things and you're trying to avoid those feelings, they're all they're all neutral and they're just information.
Judy (1:02:32)
Okay.
Right.
Yes, exactly right. Yeah, and that's why I think leaning into them with curiosity. I had given a talk at a creative arts retreat last month, and that was one of the things that I said that I don't know about you, but when you say something out there publicly and then like it's like you're reminding yourself. And it was one of those experiences because I started thinking about how important leaning into things with curiosity has been and how with hope and gratitude.
Michelle Renee (1:02:46)
Yeah.
Judy (1:03:12)
doing both of those with curiosity has opened up a span and a dimension of life that I never saw that I never even knew was there. It was there, but I never saw it as clearly as I see it now.
Michelle Renee (1:03:23)
I love you.
Judy (1:03:27)
I love you too.
Michelle Renee (1:03:28)
I just love you. It's been such a pleasure to get to work with you and be just a little, you've had a very long journey in a very complicated life. And I am delighted to have a little snippet of being part of it with you.
Judy (1:03:49)
Yeah, it's a little bigger than a snippet, I'd say. It feels that way to me. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:03:51)
Well, in the span of things in time, it feels small, but I know it's had huge ripples.
Judy (1:04:00)
yeah, like.
Yeah, I know in working with my therapist initially, I remember saying to her, you know what, like, it's okay. If I'm too hard of a case or this is too much, I get it. It's okay. And, and, you know, she was like, bring it. Okay. Yeah. You know, kind of thing and challenged me. And so I felt like when I started working with you, I was a little more vetted, I guess I would say like,
Michelle Renee (1:04:21)
Yeah.
Judy (1:04:32)
Okay, I am worth being heard, okay, but am I worth being held? Am I worth being?
That's the only way I can think to put it. Like just being held, really being seen. In some of the work we've done together, I feel tremendously seen and powerfully seen. And I'm realizing to be more patient with myself in the process of it. Okay, we worked on this. Okay, we're done. My analytical is like, okay, we're done. And my body's saying, we just started. No, we've just begun. You know what I mean?
Michelle Renee (1:05:06)
Mm -hmm.
peeling that onion. Yeah. I'm just thinking like, I think sometimes people really struggle to know what my work looks like. And I struggle to describe it because it's different, right? I remember when I met your therapist the first time and she goes, so how do you work? And I got very imposter syndrome -y. Am I gonna disappoint this?
Judy (1:05:10)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:05:38)
therapist if I just say the truth, which is I don't have a plan. I have a big toolbox and I come in and I want to know what's happening in the moment. Because that's what's like alive in the space. And I remember your therapist goes, cool, that's how I work too. And I was like, whoa, wow. Yeah.
Judy (1:05:44)
Right.
That's cool.
Yeah, I know. I know. And I think that made me go, because same language, you know, the the free styling in a sense, or the playground or, you know, the dance and how it's it's like a give and take in some ways. And it's a process and it's creative. And absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:06:14)
Yeah, and so much of what I want my clients to learn to build up is this sense of instinct. Like, the truth is, is that everyone knows what they need. They know it. They don't trust it. And for some reason, some people have very good reason not to trust it. If you're an active addiction, not the time to start trusting your, your instinct is not right.
Judy (1:06:22)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Right. Right. Right. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:06:43)
in that space, right? But with the level of work that you've done, right? It's a we are really collaborating together. I am I am just another person for you to go through some experiences with in a new way. Right? I'm a not a blank slate.
Judy (1:06:52)
Yes, absolutely.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:07:05)
The word I'm loving to describe myself as lately is sturdy.
Judy (1:07:09)
Remember we talked about that last time.
Michelle Renee (1:07:12)
I'm sturdy so that you can take risks. Right? So when you come in, it's like, okay, what are we going to do today? Let's make a plan of action, not let's talk about it a week ahead of time, because we don't know what's going to be alive that day. What's what are we going to do today? We're going to let's get naked and look at ourselves and see how we feel in our bodies.
Judy (1:07:17)
Absolutely.
Right.
Michelle Renee (1:07:41)
right? That was super powerful and something I wish I did with more clients, right? Because...
Judy (1:07:44)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (1:07:51)
I don't know that people understand how powerful that space is, is just being in our rawness with another person. So much stuff can come up in that space. Yeah. Or like, I get an idea. Hey, what would it look like if we walked in and out of the bathroom together? Somebody that doesn't have a background in this might go, why would you do that?
Judy (1:08:00)
Absolutely.
Sure. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:08:21)
right? And I'm like why wouldn't you if you've had a lot of things happen in that space? Can we rewrite some of that story with a new a new co -host?
Judy (1:08:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Right. The other reframing has been super powerful. And as you had said, it happened, it happens more instinctively. You know, it's not, I show up and say, okay, I need you to do this, this and this with me. Let's be this. That's not the window. I show up authentically and honestly saying, okay, this is what I know right now. And I'll bring out my journal or some notes from a therapy session and say, okay, this is what's in front of me. You know, I know we're meeting a month from now and I already have my wheels turning.
Michelle Renee (1:08:42)
Mm -hmm.
Nope.
Judy (1:09:03)
Because I feel like my body like inside it's already like, yeah, yeah, ooh. And again, like you said, it's the onion peeling, but it's also.
It's my desire to live fully alive. And I am seeing more and more clearly, whether it's roadblocks to me, whether it's a kink in it, whether it's a critic voice, whether it's what my dad did to me that made me believe this and just the opportunity being given to work with you and with my therapist to rewrite some of that. I've said it and I'll say it a thousand times more. It's a quality of life I never even knew was possible.
I mean, not just out there, but I never knew it was possible. You know, the self -loathing and the no regard and the worthlessness that I felt and to show up having done work, but still feeling that way physically so much, like in my body and my identity and some of the harm that was done to me because of my dad's vicious sexual abuse that...
For me to hug myself was a really big deal and it took months in therapy to get to that. I noticed when I put my hand on my chest a year into therapy and I was like, my gosh, my gosh.
Michelle Renee (1:10:24)
Is that your self -compassion gesture? Yeah. Mine is, I rub my arm.
Judy (1:10:25)
I believe it is because yeah, I remember with, yeah, because when I started feeling my heart talk, it's like, this just happens. No, absolutely. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:10:36)
Yeah, you know, relational, I don't have to tell this to you, I'm telling this to other people, relational wounds heal in relationship, right? And,
Judy (1:10:45)
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:10:51)
I think talk therapy is super powerful. I think that there's another piece that I'm dying to get a better understanding in the therapy world. I understand it. I'm dying for the therapy world to get a better understanding that adding this physical component, this surrogate relationship,
Judy (1:10:51)
it.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:11:20)
Like I'm really working primarily in the platonic these days. It's still surrogate partner therapy in the sense that I am still in cuddling or in surrogate partner therapy. It is building a relationship between me and you. So that relational healing can start to happen. Like it doesn't have to be with your mom. It doesn't have to be with your dad. It doesn't have to be with your husband. It doesn't. You need someone.
Judy (1:11:39)
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:11:49)
And somebody once referred to this kind of work as you wouldn't perform surgery on yourself. You need to have another person in the room to do surgery. And there's something about that co -regulation factor, the fact that our nervous systems are talking to each other. The relational component is there. And I'm not coming in.
Judy (1:11:56)
I hear it.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:12:19)
with an activated nervous system that's going to fight with yours. Right? If you're in a relationship and you're trying to work through a lot of traumatic stuff, your partner's also got their history. And you might not have my partner who claims that they don't have any trauma. And I say claims, I really believe him. I do think that he really grew up in a really stable house, that he doesn't have an ACEs score.
Judy (1:12:23)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Right.
Michelle Renee (1:12:50)
in the organic relationship world, it's a little more complicated because everybody's got their different feelings that come into play. And I get to just show up with like unconditional positive regard. I got my cheerleader pom poms, right? And I'm just like, how can we get you to the next step?
Judy (1:13:12)
And your arms are open. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:13:13)
And God, I wish therapists could at least give hugs. You know, I've asked my therapist at times for hugs, and thankfully, I've been able to get them under certain circumstances. But I was at a conference and David Grand who created brain spotting, which is an offshoot of EMDR, just for anybody who's a geek about this stuff like me. Somebody asked him a question about like,
Judy (1:13:19)
Right.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:13:41)
what do you do when your client is really activated? And he goes, are you asking me if I hug them? Because in the United States, in most states, if you hug your clients, you could lose your job. And in other countries, if you don't hug your client, you are a shitty therapist. And I just I remember being I got to do a talk therapy session one time and then do a cuddle session right afterwards as a client.
Judy (1:13:54)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:14:12)
and it was so good. But I remember being in the therapy session going, I wish my therapist could even just sit next to me and know that our legs were touching. Anything to have physical contact would feel so good, but instead they're across the, like sitting in another chair across from me with feet between us. Like my nervous system, that's not, it doesn't, it's not what my nervous system needs
Judy (1:14:14)
Wow.
Yes. Yeah.
Right.
Sure, absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:14:41)
So.
Judy (1:14:44)
Absolutely. Yeah. And I do, I think I was thinking about one of the phrases that came to mind was how what I used to do is disqualify myself, right? Even beforehand. I mean, I were getting on like a Zoom meeting and I already disqualified myself based on like who showed up. And it was either shadow work or imposter work. There's a lot of different words for it. But for me, it just made me realize the scope and the nature of how
far and wide that self judgment was. And learning to be a little softer with myself or learning to identify when that disqualification and I've noticed so much improvement in that, right? And I think it's because what went along with disqualifying was because I'm broken and damaged.
Michelle Renee (1:15:34)
You're not good enough.
Judy (1:15:35)
Yeah, and one of the first things my therapist said to me, okay, right out of the gate, I just want to make clear that I'm not going to fix you because I don't see you as broken. And okay, that took me about three sessions to sit with. It's like, okay, my whole life, I've seen myself, honestly, as young as I can remember, damaged goods. Why I didn't belong? Because I would go to my friend's house and see their relationship with their family and not even comparing it, but I would just see.
because of the sexual abuse from my dad, it was never okay to climb up on my dad's lap. It never felt okay to me. And to see them relate differently in my mind, yep, it's just me, yep, I'm no good, yep. And it just layered upon layered and then being involved in the cult, it was just earning and deserving. So it was like, okay, there it was, you know, and challenges in my marriage. Okay, there it was. And it was amazing to see how I was just,
Disqualifying myself that it didn't even wasn't even a thought process. I just showed up that way, you know And I remember I remember a few years gosh probably about 20 years ago meeting with friends of mine and I remember saying to this couple They were an older couple and I really had so much respect and love for them and they were like neighbors And I remember saying to them if you really knew me you wouldn't love me and it's okay And I remember saying that meaning it no like it's really okay. I remember sitting my therapist across were saying it it's okay. I
You know, and I could tell, I felt like I was more ready to call you to step into it because, okay, I knew that was changing. But then now what? Because now it was like, okay, then what am I and what do I need? What do I like? You know, like pleasure in any way. Like, what do I really like? Well, I like frozen yogurt with peanut butter and chocolate chips, you know? But I mean, what do I really like? And that's really, really hard for me, you know, to identify. And it's getting easier, but.
Michelle Renee (1:17:33)
Yeah.
Judy (1:17:35)
It's hard because I don't even know what my options are. So I think it's that learning curve and that's some of the amazing work that I've done with you to even like, well, options could be this, this or this, you know?
Michelle Renee (1:17:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, like that's so, it's so common to not know. And when you have a background of abuse, it's important to not know, right? You don't get to have that anyways, right? Everybody else is, you are just a tool for other people. And then you add that child not being able to understand what's happening and that it's not their fault.
Judy (1:17:51)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, was I broken? Like, why was I the one? Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:18:16)
Right? Everything's your fault. Like it just it layers up layers, layers. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, whether you have that kind of abuse background or not, people come in here and they don't know what they like. They don't know what they want. Nobody's asked them or they haven't had to decide what that is. And so that's why I think that, again, working in the moment is so important because it would be OK if you came in here and I said,
How do you want to connect today? And you're like, I want to eat frozen yogurt with peanut butter and chocolate chips. Let's do it. Right? I'm a yes to that. Let's do it. And you might, in another day, you might come in and be like, we're going to do the hardest fucking work we've ever done together. Today I want to, I don't even know what that is, but I could throw in one of our old things. Like, I don't know if it was hard, me laying on top of you.
Judy (1:18:54)
Yes, yeah. Sure.
Michelle Renee (1:19:15)
Was that hard?
Judy (1:19:17)
Unimaginable, I would say. I wouldn't even say hard. It was like, I can't comprehend this.
Michelle Renee (1:19:24)
Yeah, but like talk about depth of work. That day using my body to compress your body and have it be like radically intense experience of repair.
Judy (1:19:28)
that was deep.
Yeah. Yeah. Radical.
Michelle Renee (1:19:46)
I think we were joking about, I thought day one of our work together was going to be the big highlight day, right? And day two was just going to be some processing. And then to end up doing, I think the most powerful work being laying on top of you.
Both of those kinds of sessions are valuable.
Judy (1:20:08)
Absolutely. Yeah, and I never dreamed like I, the thought of that was like, I can't wrap my head around it. And I remember when I was going to do some cuddle work here where I live locally, I remember reaching out to the cuddle therapist and saying, I can't even imagine what like a cuddle event is. I can't even imagine like what that would look like. The people just sit around and like hold hands like that. I had no frame of reference for it. You know what I mean? So I know in the depth of work,
depth of work you and I have done and how it's grown, the level of trust for you that you are not to harm me, not to hurt me. Like that is not your intention. And I know it and I believe it, but my body needs to know it. It can't be convinced, right? Like we talked about in the beginning, our body remembers this, this, and this. And so when it has something that feels so dramatically different and feels safe,
It's like the mind gets, okay, wait a minute, you know?
Michelle Renee (1:21:13)
Yeah, here's the thing I have to caveat asterisks.
I have harmed clients unintentionally, but then here's the awesome cool thing is that we got to experience the process of repair. And for so many of my clients, they've never had that. They've never had someone take responsibility. They've never had someone apologize and make it, try to make it right. Right? So I, years ago, I got that advice of like, I'm so afraid to screw something up. Right. And my,
Judy (1:21:20)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Yep. Yep.
Michelle Renee (1:21:48)
My mentor, Brian Gibney says, and guess what? You're human. And if you screw something up, it's an opportunity to repair. And then I remember reading like, there's no such thing. You cannot have a securely secure functioning relationship without conflict. And so now when I see a chance for conflict in my work.
Judy (1:21:53)
Mm -hmm.
Absolutely.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:22:16)
I get really excited about it because I think, here's an opportunity for us to strengthen our relationship.
Judy (1:22:21)
Absolutely. Yeah. And even when you suggested that to me, I was like, you know, like, you know, yes or no, like, how's that feel for you? And I'm like, well, my body's saying, oh hell yes. And my mind saying, I can't even like, I can't even, you know, but again, I've been so grateful that day I leaned into curiosity because to imagine someone else's like body skin touching mine.
feeling warm and soothing as opposed to startling and wanting to push and fight.
Michelle Renee (1:22:55)
But how else do we rewrite that, right? You can't talk that through. You cannot just intellectualize the feeling of having that pressure in a different context. We have to have a space where we can have that experience. And in that experience, you knew that at any time you could say, nope, can't do this. Can't do it, done, and I would honor that.
Judy (1:23:00)
Right.
Right. Right.
Or done. Yeah. Right.
Michelle Renee (1:23:26)
instantly with zero judgment and it's not even that we ever have to have to do that but it's the opportunity to do it and see what happens.
Judy (1:23:32)
Right.
Right. And there's something really healing in my experience of like, I, I get to say that. Like, I get to say that, you know, and working in that in therapy with my therapist, as you know, and know her like, okay, that's too much. She's like, Hey, well, let's try it this way. And I was like, and again, it shows up different for everybody. You know, I tend to be.
Michelle Renee (1:23:43)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
my gosh.
Judy (1:24:04)
you know, over the work with my therapist, I've really, over the years, her asking me, okay, where do you feel in your body? Or does it have any image or any sight or any sound or any smell or any color related to it? Over and over and over again. And I am very imagery oriented to begin with. When I teach college, I teach images, like, so they can experience it. And so seeing that grow,
and then see that transfer into the relationship you and I have, you know, both in cuddle and surrogate work makes it so much more like it's putting the hands on it, right? It's putting the arms on it. It's putting the hugs on it that take it deeper inside. And sometimes it's heavy and sometimes it's not. It's just beautiful. It's a celebration. I remember like after our time together, I just was like sending you a note or an email or a FaceTime and saying, wow, you know, as I process and weeks and days go by,
to kind of sit with and realize what feels different. You know, like I was so excited to tell you about going out on that porch and realizing because I'm learning, I'm beginning to feel safer in my own body. I'm like, my gosh, like, you can't put a value on that or a darmon or a depth of gratitude. And I started writing my second like,
Somatic side book, right? So I have some analytical stuff, but I it's called beyond words when there are no words because these are those moments when like there's no words to describe What that feels like yet? I know it feels so different. It's so amazingly good Yet, I don't know how to even say that like beyond. Okay. Thank you, Michelle. Yes. I'm sitting here crying your gratitude. Yes Thank you for it's the only way I can think to convey it because even those words don't feel strongly
Michelle Renee (1:25:57)
Do you feel loved? That's what I want. I want you to feel loved.
Judy (1:26:01)
I'm like beyond beyond what I knew was imaginable actually.
how many times I've disqualified myself from being worth being loved. And I feel like in our time and in our work together and in the depth of work and in the times we've laughed when we've been so much alike, that presence of, no, I love you. Like I appreciate you deeply. And there's a sense of love and compassion. And it just feels like such a healthy relationship. The vulnerability and the honesty yet.
Michelle Renee (1:26:20)
Yeah.
Judy (1:26:37)
the ability to hold space however I show up. It's not like I show up and have it all together and here's our list and da da da da. Like I said before, it's like, no, I'm growing up and I love the image. No, this is a playground. No, this is just like an experiment. And I love those images.
Michelle Renee (1:26:43)
I don't want you to have it together, right?
Lab time.
Yeah, I you know the times I feel most loved is when I'm
most imperfect. Right? That's something that I always thought I had to have it all together. But the times that I actually feel like, I am lovable because they're loving me even when I'm like this.
Judy (1:27:05)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the other thing, and I don't know if you'll need to explain this at all, but I'll say it first and then you can see, but the other real game changer for me has been time and time again, when it's that little girl in me that feels so afraid or so scared or so overwhelmed. And you are literally just able to say, it's okay, little Judy, I'm here for you. I got you. And to have someone...
beyond me, outside of me, cherished that little girl within me.
Michelle Renee (1:27:53)
Mmm. Yeah.
Judy (1:27:53)
No words. There's no words.
Michelle Renee (1:27:57)
Thank you.
I sit at night sometimes.
I'm so inspired by you.
and I get panicked.
that like I don't know how to yell this loud enough.
Judy (1:28:07)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (1:28:08)
that there's other, there's more things that people can do to work through their stuff. And
Judy (1:28:14)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (1:28:15)
Thankfully, a lot of people take this kind of work seriously, but I can't get it on a big enough platform, it feels like. You know?
Judy (1:28:24)
felt arm in arm with you there. I remember after our last session, and I go to this support group on Monday nights, and I've gone for about four years, and it's for men and women who have been sexually abused. And I've helped facilitate it and be a part of it. And I couldn't wait to talk to the facilitator about the work you and I have done. And I mean, in raw, real terms, talk to her about it. In my heart, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.
The heart is I want everyone to know, know there's more. Like you don't have to die this way, feeling so broken and unloved or not able to be held. Like it doesn't have to be there this way. Like there's therapists out there that can like help you work through these things. And there's amazing cuddle therapists and surrogate partner therapists out there that can work in that triad model that to me is.
The way I talk about it is from self -loathing to self loving Because you both believe in me. And it's helped me to take a step back and believe in me. And to know that, to know that, you know, we talk about committee that I can text or I can reach out and just say, boy, I'm stuck here or this scares the crap out of me, you know, the shit out of me. And,
But again, it's a place I feel welcome to show up and be vulnerable and be real. Where there's just. It's OK, there's space for it here. It's welcomed here. It's not just tolerated, it's welcome.
Michelle Renee (1:29:56)
Yeah, for sure.
Well, thank you for coming on here and sharing. You've done this with me a couple of times now. We were able to present at a thing a while back for some sex educators in training. And I don't know what, I don't know what the future holds for us professionally in our therapeutic relationship. I don't know what the future holds for us professionally in our, whatever happens for you professionally.
moving forward as far as like where you take your own work in helping other people. But I know we're forever linked.
Judy (1:30:40)
for sure.
Because I feel like I've left you and my therapist into a part of my heart that nobody's ever been in for many reasons and some really good ones. And...
It's just a beautiful thing.
Michelle Renee (1:30:58)
It's a lovely little collaboration we have. Yeah.
Judy (1:31:01)
I wish people from the house tops could see the triad model and how amazing it works. You know, take that, you know? Yeah, me too.
Michelle Renee (1:31:08)
They're gonna see it. I'm bound and determined. I've talked to your therapist. She's a yes to presenting with me if we can get some places to take on our story. And I hope to have another client with her in the future and maybe many clients with her in the future. I just really thank you for bringing her into my life. She's magic.
Judy (1:31:34)
I remember her saying to me not too long ago, how did you even meet Michelle?
Michelle Renee (1:31:38)
Yeah, we all come together in however the universe makes it happen. And I'm just freaking, I've pinched myself for years about the people that I've like have in my circle and they're just amazing people keep showing up and like you're one of them and your therapist is one of them.
Judy (1:31:56)
So are you. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (1:32:00)
Well, is there anything, and we wrap, what kind of resources would you want people to know if they hear this and they're like, wow, I'm really struggling. Where do I start? I know you started with, what was the group that you started with? It was like a rape crisis group or something.
Judy (1:32:17)
Yeah, so, yeah, I started with.
It's called PAR and it's called Pittsburgh Action Against Rape. And I had a dear friend who was a counselor and she said, I really believe they could help you. And I called them and I refer to it. And another, when I share about this on another talk I gave, it's like the longest walk, the shortest distance, because I showed up and just said, I need help. And I shared my story of, of a.
being sexually abused by my dad for a young age consistently and how broken I was, right? How I was damaged goods and wasn't, the self -loathing was like I said, off the charts. And so that's how I showed up there. And literally that's how I met my therapist. And...
The rest is history. Yeah, for real. And we were such an amazing fit. And I'm telling you, that was one of the things I was most nervous about because I had had a counselor I had gone to a couple of years prior and I hadn't gone to many counselors at all. Obviously, I mean, I didn't think I was worth it. Right. And I went to one before when I came out of the cult and it was a horrific experience. Like she gave me a book of 30 days of freedom from shame and said,
Michelle Renee (1:33:17)
lightning strikes.
yeah
Judy (1:33:47)
And she said, if you forgive your dad, then it would all be different. And I only had one memory back then, one memory, right? One memory. And it was like, okay. And so it took a long time for me to, how many times I shared that story with my therapist because it was really hard to trust and believe. And I didn't want a book. I didn't want like, just someone just hear me. Tell me if there's anything in me worth it. It was more...
how I showed up, you know, just so broken. And then the work her and I have done to lead me to working with another cuddle therapist that led me to working with you and forever grateful. I mean, I, it's again, it's the quality of life. I, I never, there's things in me alive that I never knew were even there. You know, I had felt so dead in so many ways and, in what you mirror and what you welcome has it.
brought those broken pieces back to life in a way that unimaginable for me. So absolutely thank you. I think you're my therapist when she listens to this, you know, if she chooses to put a deep gratitude for you and the work and the team, the triad team. I'm like on the rooftops about that.
Michelle Renee (1:35:00)
Yeah, like I...
Yeah, I have such gratitude for her. Like, woohoo, when we presented together and she described her work with you over the course of the years and I wish we had a recording of it because it was like, she didn't know about the future. She didn't know that you would end up working with me or with your cuddle therapist that you have back home. And it was like she was setting you up for all of this work without knowing that we existed.
Judy (1:35:10)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (1:35:36)
Because you needed it, you know, the somatic part of her background, you needed that in general. But it was so, it was fit perfectly for this work. You showed up with so, so ahead of the curve.
Judy (1:35:42)
Absolutely.
And ready. I think that's what I like about when I showed up at par. That's one of the first things I remember. She said, she goes, you're really ready to be here. And I'm like, I went through the laundry list of what I've tried, what I've done in so many different capacities and nothing. And I still am this way. And, you know, but again, I only had one memory when I first started meeting with her. So for me, it was a lot of repressed memories over time that were.
Michelle Renee (1:35:55)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Judy (1:36:23)
were locked and stuck in there. And little by little, it was over a year or two years before they started coming out. But now I understand, my body finally felt safe enough to be able to give voice to them. And that's it.
Michelle Renee (1:36:34)
I was told at one time, your brain will only give you what you're ready to have.
Judy (1:36:42)
Exactly. Yeah, my therapist has told me that. It's very powerful.
Michelle Renee (1:36:45)
Yeah, it's powerful. It's very empowering. Or maybe empowering is not the right word. It feels, it's very protective feeling that I will never be given more than I can handle. That my brain will only, my mind will only give me the things that I'm ready to hear.
Judy (1:36:49)
Yes, it is.
Yeah, and how beautiful that we're made that way, right? We're wired that way. Absolutely. It's like a built -in safety zone, right? That shuts it off. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:37:10)
Yep. Well, I mean, think about it.
Little Judy did an amazing job taking care of you. Right? Amazing job taking care of you. And now we get to start to take that off of little Judy. And in in big Judy gets to step in and be the protector now. Right?
Judy (1:37:15)
Hmm. You are so right.
You know, two weeks ago, those were the exact words my therapist said to me. The exact words she said. little Judy, you've done so well.
Michelle Renee (1:37:37)
Yeah.
She's amazing. Like amazing. What a powerhouse. Yeah. Well, we're at an hour and 40 minutes. We could go. I know you and I could just talk about this forever. Yeah. Well, you know, let's do some more work and see what we want to talk about next, you know? Yeah. Thank you so, so much.
Judy (1:37:47)
Mm -hmm.
Okay.
Part two, part three, part four? Absolutely.
Yeah, super grateful.
You're very welcome.
Michelle Renee (1:38:12)
And you know, and I'm going to say this on tape, if you ever want to take this interview down, you always have my 100 % support to take care of yourself.
Judy (1:38:21)
I'm a hell yes.
Michelle Renee (1:38:23)
Yeah. And thanks for letting me be part of your team.
Judy (1:38:28)
Absolutely. Thank you.
Michelle Renee (1:38:31)
Be well and I will see you in about a month. All right. Mwah! And to everybody at home, thanks for sticking with us and we hope you'll join us again. Me, Judy, whoever shows up next, we'll talk to you guys soon.
Judy (1:38:33)
That's right. I'm excited.
