The Use of Nudity in my Work
Kyle Hoffman and Michelle Renee discuss the use of nudity in their work as professional cuddlers and intimacy coaches or guides. When is it therapeutic? How can it help improve body image?
Psychology Today articles on public nudity and body image: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-myths-sex/202102/spending-time-naked-strangers-can-improve-body-image
Kyle Hoffman is based in Philadelphia and travels to see clients, including to Fort Lauderdale in the winter. You can find him at https://www.cuddlingandcoaching.com/ and on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/cuddlingandcoaching/
Michelle Renee (she/her) based in San Diego, is dedicated to helping clients live their most authentic life. From her personal journey, Michelle knows that love heals. Michelle has combined her 8+ years of experience as both a cuddle therapist and a surrogate partner to create a hybrid offering called Foundations of Human Connection. She affectionately welcomes clients into her Human Connection Lab, where she supports them in relational healing through experiential touch, unconditional positive regard, celebrated agency, and authentic connection.
She is also the founder of https://SoftCockWeek.com, co-founder of Embrace Surrogate Partner Resource Group (https://embracespt.org), host of The Intimacy Lab podcast (https://intimacylabpodcast.com), and Director of Training for https://Cuddlist.com.
You can find Michelle on social media at @meetmichellerenee or check out her sites https://HumanConnectionCoach.com and https://MeetMichelleRenee.com.
Rough Transcript
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Kyle: Hi, for any of you
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Kyle: don't know. I'm Kyle Robert Hoffman. My website is cuddling and coaching.com
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Kyle: for a number of years I've been doing
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Kyle: cuddle therapy intimacy, coaching life, coaching and workshops.
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Kyle: and
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Kyle: yeah. And and today I'm only speaking about my private practice.
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Kyle: my, I myself advertise as like a contractor or
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Kyle: doing different modalities on some different
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Kyle: other 3rd party companies. And anything I'm talking about today is is only through my own private practice.
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Kyle: yeah. And I'm I'm here with Michelle, Renee and Michelle. Let you introduce yourself a little bit.
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Michelle Renee: Thanks. Kyle. My Michelle Renee is, pronounced she her. I'm based in San Diego, and I, too. Talk today as a private practice owner in touch. But Kyle and I we met each other through cutlist.com. I happen to be the director of training. So this is not a conversation about official cutlest protocol.
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Michelle Renee: This is a conversation that Kyle and I have some overlap in that
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Michelle Renee: is not about cutlass sessions. So I want to just say that as people know me from so many different places, Kylie are going to talk today about
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Michelle Renee: why we like to bring nudity
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Michelle Renee: into our work, because it's something that we have a lot of passion for and overlap. And I just thought we could demystify it a bit
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Michelle Renee: and talk about how that has worked with our clients, what our processes are, what we see as the benefits.
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Michelle Renee: And and maybe we'll even touch on some of the limitations.
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Michelle Renee: So yeah, so, Kyle, like.
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Michelle Renee: what's been? How? What's your experience? How did you? How did you decide to start bringing in lesser clothing as an option for some of your work.
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Kyle: Yeah, that's a great question, Michelle. Answer a moment. And and
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Kyle: you also prompted me to say that
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Kyle: also for myself, like, I, yeah, I work with people in all different ways, and for many of them, like
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Kyle: no clothing is ever removed, like there's every pressure that's not the goal.
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Kyle: Some be. I just do pure life coaching. So
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Kyle: yeah, and just sharing with this is like one option tool that I've expanded to over years.
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Kyle: And
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Kyle: yeah, I mean how I've got in there. My professional work is been doing this touch and cuddle therapy work and combining coaching with it since 2,018, and up until 2,023 it was all. It was always fully clothed, which was really great.
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Kyle: and over time
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Kyle: As I had been working with clients. I saw that
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Kyle: sometimes with within that constraint I could help them up to a certain point, and they still needed greater help.
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Kyle: that
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Kyle: would be helped by clothing being able to be removed in a consensual and safe and professional container.
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Kyle: So, for example, sometimes, if I've worked with people who have had trauma like sexual or physical trauma or just have been.
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Kyle: I shouldn't say Jess, or have been out of dating, or maybe never have been dating or intimate people.
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Kyle: It's so amazing to do
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Kyle: the work cloth to help them get up
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Kyle: to a certain point of comfort. And then
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Kyle: I had many clients wanting to continue this work, and then I refer them to other people. And eventually, I'm like, you know, what I feel comfortable to keep getting training and do this. So that's definitely been a
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Kyle: benefit that I've seen that
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Kyle: I can provide like a longer bridge one between
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Kyle: and bridge. It goes closer to
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Kyle: personal dating or intimate connection in their personal life.
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Kyle: also I can.
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Kyle: So I can go further in helping
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Kyle: people heal trauma and become more comfortable boundaries. Because.
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Kyle: yeah, setting boundaries and ask for you. One close versus. Some are all close removed, is it's a different level. And for many people. It's a different level. Whereas a different amount of comfort, and can bring different things up. So
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Kyle: there's a lot more I can say before I
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Kyle: or I talked too long. Yeah, those are some things for me. How about how about you, Michelle? One? How? Yeah, how did you get here? If you'd like to share. And yeah benefits. You've seen.
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Michelle Renee: I remember when I got out of my 1st marriage, I was working on my sexuality, my ability to orgasm, and I came across Betty Dotson, who was an old Badass sex educator, who really her her offering was masturbation workshop, and part of that was you had to be naked for 2 days, and I was not there. I was at that time I wouldn't even take my kids to the beach because I didn't want to be seen in a bathing suit, let alone walking in
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Michelle Renee: to a woman's Manhattan apartment and hanging up my clothes the minute I walked in the door. Was it? It was a it was a goal to get to right. And and I got there.
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Michelle Renee: and it got normalized really quickly.
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Michelle Renee: And part of Betty's thing was that
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Michelle Renee: we hide behind our clothes in so many ways, and it kind of levels the playing field. And
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Michelle Renee: I was playing in the kink world. I was finding myself in situations where I was getting to practice, being naked in public spaces.
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Michelle Renee: and it really helped me
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Michelle Renee: kind of
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Michelle Renee: love myself. I got to see a wide variety of bodies. We had this idea that the only people that get naked are like super models.
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Michelle Renee: right? And that's not true. And so it, it became part of my own journey. And so, as I've worked with clients
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Michelle Renee: occasionally like you said, you get to a point
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Michelle Renee: where there's like a next stage.
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Michelle Renee: Right? We've
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Michelle Renee: we've ex not exhausted, but we we certainly have set a good foundation. I think of my work is like a couple of phases and phase. One
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Michelle Renee: was very clothed in Platonic
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Michelle Renee: phase. 2 for me at this point is still Platonic.
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Michelle Renee: But what does it mean to get comfortable in your own skin in front of another witness.
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Michelle Renee: Right? It might not be that you're ready to go into a public space
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Michelle Renee: and do that work. But what about one on one when somebody else is willing to get vulnerable with you.
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Michelle Renee: and we move at the clients pace. Some people are like, let's just get it over with and take our clothes off, and I tend to do some mirror work with them in that space, but also cuddling naked is different, like you said it really can touch on some different places around, whether it's trauma, recovery, body image.
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Michelle Renee: just being comfortable with another body. And like said, it's such a. It's such a stepping stone to getting back into the dating world that it it comes up in my work pretty often, and I'm loving that it is
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Michelle Renee: it? It's so nice to create a space where people feel comfortable to take that big risk.
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Michelle Renee: because for some people that is a really big risk. And what I really love is that there is science that says that one of the best ways to get over body image issues is public nudity.
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Michelle Renee: and we'll put a link to that article in the in the description for this video. But this is something that we can do in our space. And I think you and I both feel
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Michelle Renee: we can do it, cause we're comfortable.
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Michelle Renee: and you get to borrow some of our comforts
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Michelle Renee: while you push your edges a little bit.
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Kyle: Yeah.
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Kyle: yeah, I it's everything sure is so beautiful, Michelle. And
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Kyle: yeah, it feels helpful for me to yeah, share a little bit of my my also personal journey to get here, because
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Kyle: well, I started incorporating clothing options work in 2,023. It's yeah. It's been a much longer journey for me personally, like
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Kyle: growing up
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Kyle: naked. Wasn't okay. Like, like, yeah, even in from even boys, locker room or so. Like, yeah, I felt embarrassed. I felt.
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Kyle: yeah, scared.
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Kyle: and I felt really vulnerable. I mean.
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Kyle: I guess, invulnerable in like a
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Kyle: not like yeah enjoyable way. I was just like trying to minimize it.
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Kyle: so yeah, I've like starting in 2,000
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Kyle: 9, I did an all men's workshop that yeah, it was called the Mankind project that involved like optional.
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Kyle: Sometime it could be optionally nude, and that was really powerful for me. It
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Kyle: felt so bonding. It felt for me like I was getting more in touch with my ancestors. And how? Yeah. So my ancestors connected and showed up together.
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Kyle: created more safety for me among men to be able to trust that and
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Kyle: see that yeah can be safe, can dance, can hug naked. And it's and it's okay. And and and for me part, then it doesn't have to be sexual. People might feel feelings or traction. But yeah, it doesn't have to become sexual in the acts.
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Kyle: I went to
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Kyle: a number of
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Kyle: all gender clothing, optional workshops, and like intimacy, sexuality, and love. And those are beautiful and powerful. Me tantra workshops. And
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Kyle: so it's
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Kyle: so yeah, it's been a a significant journey. And then it was like incorporating that more into my own personally. But it was
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Kyle: just for me some of the growth measures with Platonic friends that I wasn't romantic erotic with. But to to yeah, be able to connect in a clothing optional way, either
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Kyle: just being present together or yeah, sharing touch or cuddling has been really amazing. And it's yeah. It's been a journey.
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Kyle: So that's awesome for me. And I still agree with you about
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Kyle: the the body image that
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Kyle: so much of
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Kyle: what we see in us mainstream culture is.
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Kyle: people of only certain body types. And then it's often like it's airbrushed. It's like, probably take 300 photos and pick the the very best one like, I think even videos have a lot of
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Kyle: editing now, and it really
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Kyle: creates or contributes to a lot of people thinking that they're less attractive. Or they're that, that they're abnormal, whether it's they can be any bipart but stomach genitals, but
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Kyle: chest breasts.
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Kyle: etc. So yeah, I really agree with you about
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Kyle: the body image piece.
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Michelle Renee: Yeah, I think one of my favorite things that happens is
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Michelle Renee: is a lot of my clients don't have a lot of relationship experience. And when I get to share with them everything I love and don't love about my body, and they get to see like I. I'm very like transparent with them and tell stories about how my body got to where it is. I'm 48. I've had 2 kids of
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Michelle Renee: went through weight fluctuations, and there's hanging skin and stretch marks. And all these things. And
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Michelle Renee: I I tried to love myself as much as I can. I'm I'm big on body neutrality, not necessarily body positivity. But for a client to be able to know what's happening in my head and see me differently, and say, but I like that part about you.
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Michelle Renee: Right, then they can take that into their next relationship and have more compassion for the person they're standing in front of, that they have their own stuff going on at the same time, and that's like probably my sweetest little spot of the work is just them getting to know
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Michelle Renee: all of me that way, like it's not seeing the polished outside.
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Michelle Renee: It's what's going on underneath here and getting to talk about what goes on in here underneath here, too.
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Michelle Renee: and so
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Michelle Renee: question for you.
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Kyle: Before before. Kind of share sort of thing. They thought that you just shared and also say for myself and my clients from talking about comfort.
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Kyle: my experience. Yeah, for myself and clients. Also that the more comfortable that we become with our bodies, acceptance, positivity, whatever's right for you.
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Kyle: the more that
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Kyle: I'll just speak for myself right now. I'm able to. We're able to help like future, whether it's friends or romantic partner. Feel more comfortable with their own body or their own sexuality, like the more that they're that we're able to show up in a personal life grounded and having worked through more of our stuff.
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Kyle: it's like it's like a role model. And it's giving other people permission to feel more comfortable. So that's that feels so exciting and amazing to me that it's this.
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Michelle Renee: There's ripples.
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Kyle: Yeah, there's ripples. Yeah, really.
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Michelle Renee: Student becomes a teacher. That's I often tell clients. One day you're going to be in my role, and you're going to be helping somebody else feel comfortable in their body.
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Michelle Renee: Yeah, it's so. It's so powerful question I wanted to ask you
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Michelle Renee: is this something that people can sign up for with you right off the bat. Is this something they work up to? How do you determine
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Michelle Renee: who is a good candidate to work with you in this fashion?
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Kyle: Sure excellent question.
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Kyle: well.
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Kyle: pretty much almost a anyone that comes in me, whatever kind of work they're looking to do we'll use. Do a little bit of emailing. And then, like an initial zoom call so that's somehow I get to know them what they're working on and what both our comfort zone is things like that?
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Kyle: What might be right for them.
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Kyle: And I say to
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Kyle: Well, in all my work, say that
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Kyle: anyway, it has to be like a mutual yes, between us. And that means, yeah, that I'm I'm honoring my own.
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Kyle: Some feeling of emotional and physical safety
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Kyle: and doesn't might not always be logical things. Or maybe, like someone just reminds me of someone who had negative experience with the past. And that's gonna affect like the timing of what I feel comfortable with when
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Kyle: so that's always in place. And
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Kyle: I I don't think I've ever. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever
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Kyle: like
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Kyle: had clothing removed like right in the beginning of like a 1st
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Kyle: session. I can't think of any times like that like I could see myself, maybe being open to that. If it's just someone that
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Kyle: one, either, it's like, Wow, it's really clear from our video call. And there's a lot of comfort, and they're very good about consent and and things like that. Or maybe we have. They have some training or some involvement in other self growth that I feel more confident, or may have I know them in in a different place. So yeah,
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Kyle: that could be possible. And but more commonly what goes on or how it goes, is
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Kyle: either throughout a session that's like a couple of hours long, or or a few sessions over some people along, or shouldn't say a long time. Could be weeks, months, a year.
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Kyle: based on what?
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Kyle: On their own progress and comfort zone. And
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Kyle: I as much as they're willing. I have them lead that like. So it's not coming for me, but their own pace, and asking for what they want to make sure it's it's safe and things really good for them.
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Kyle: yeah. So
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Kyle: hopefully that answered the question.
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Michelle Renee: Yeah, I I'm with you. I think I've never done any nudity in an initial session.
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Michelle Renee: I can imagine. If someone came to me that was
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Michelle Renee: already a nudist or naturalist.
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Michelle Renee: and they they were just wanting to have like, let's say, a cuddle session.
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Michelle Renee: and cause I've thought about at times I could go I would be totally down to offer my service in the newest community like go to a resort and book clients there. I wouldn't have any issue with that, because there's something
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Michelle Renee: Nudity has already been desensualized in those communities. They're very protective, actually of desexualizing nudity. I find them to be a little sex negative those communities because they're so hyper vigilant about protecting
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Michelle Renee: that nudity and sex don't have to be intertwined right? So that would be the exception that I can think of, but generally it is like a further stage in my work with clients like a stage 2 where we've really established a really good foundation. I always think of
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Michelle Renee: Betty Martin. I don't know if you've done a wheel of consent, but one of the things they talk about a lot in there is that we have to learn these new skills in a nonsexual space.
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Michelle Renee: That means nudity has to to get to that kind of
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Michelle Renee: next step to do nudity in a non-sexual way. We're going to have to learn some stuff first, st
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Michelle Renee: and I think a lot of times in my work. When I'm working with people that are in a scarcity space around sex.
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Kyle: Room.
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Michelle Renee: We have to do some work around getting
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Michelle Renee: through those feelings of sexual arousal just in cuddling right? Because.
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Michelle Renee: having close physical contact, I expect that to be activating for people when they haven't had when they've been in a loss around sex like they just haven't had that experience in some time.
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Michelle Renee: of course, touching another body is gonna bring up some stuff. But I I firmly believe that we can get through that right and and normalize this new experience to them, because it is a new experience for people like nobody comes it not everybody. Most people don't come in here, and they're like, I am proficient cuddling. I've been doing this with professionals for years, and there are the people that do kind of travel the circuit right? But most people come in here. They're scared to death.
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Michelle Renee: and they're just like it's a big barrier to even get in the front door. So, like you, I don't offer
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Michelle Renee: nudity.
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Michelle Renee: I wait for the client to ask for it
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Michelle Renee: and say I'd really like to work on. Usually it comes up as I'd like to work on my body image issues.
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Michelle Renee: Oh, there's some ways we could do that. Let's kind of collaborate and see what feels good to you
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Michelle Renee: right? But it is kind of. I don't. Secret menu sounds really saucy and spicy, but it is kind of something that I don't
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Michelle Renee: It's not in my menu.
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Michelle Renee: but it is on my menu.
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Michelle Renee: You know it's it's in my toolbox as one way to work on certain issues.
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Michelle Renee: or just to feel more skin to skin. If you're an established client.
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Michelle Renee: I have a client that I've I've had naked cuddling with for years, like 4 years we've been doing this.
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Michelle Renee: It's comfort, it's comforting, and it's helped with body image, and he feels more comfortable in his skin.
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Michelle Renee: Right? So, yeah.
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Michelle Renee: I like this topic.
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Kyle: Yeah, it's so neat. Yeah, I.
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Kyle: So I just could grab my keyboard.
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Kyle: yeah, it's yeah. I was looking forward to this.
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Kyle: see one of another answer earlier question that
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Kyle: like so so
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Kyle: one of the things I lead is clothing optional, all male intimacy workshops. So I've had times where I've
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Kyle: had a client where
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Kyle: I've never had a 1 on one session with them.
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Kyle: They did either like a whole day or a whole weekend workshop, and then I feel a lot of comfort after leaving that there and then, if they want to, feels right for them like move into clothing, optional work in the 1st one on one session afterwards, like, Yeah, I've done that, and that's felt that has felt great.
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Kyle: So saying, that's an example.
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Kyle: And another thing you
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Kyle: mentioned I wanted to touch on
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Kyle: see, that's why I was getting my keyboard so I can write down.
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Michelle Renee: Yeah, yes, I know that for me. One thing I wanted to mention is when I don't like. It's a good fit.
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Kyle: Go ahead.
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Michelle Renee: And that for me is
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Michelle Renee: somebody that is new and not willing to meet with me in a Platonic clothed way first, st and work up to it when they're really
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Michelle Renee: Determine to that be the whole focus of our work. I'm not. I'm not a yes, that's that goes back to like my comfort zone and building that level of intimacy. And it, I think a workshop is a great place to navigate that with new people. There's a th. There's something in community in nudity that is self policing.
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Kyle: As.
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Michelle Renee: Especially as a a female practitioner to to get naked with a especially a male client.
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Michelle Renee: There's a a bigger risk factor for me right. I need to know you. I need to know how your intentions feel.
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Kyle: Thinking.
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Michelle Renee: Right. I remember back in the beginning of working as a professional cutler asking that question of
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Michelle Renee: Are you settling for Platonic, or are you desiring Platonic?
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Michelle Renee: Because if you're using work with me as like a.
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Michelle Renee: it's good enough.
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Michelle Renee: We're not. I'm not gonna feel good to me. I'm gonna pick up on that inconsistency in our intention.
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Michelle Renee: and that mismatched energy is is a is a no for me anymore.
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Kyle: Yeah.
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Kyle: I hear you. I
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Kyle: yeah. So that'd be. This isn't the focus of our talk, but I'd be good that at least when I use cause. I mean, I've experienced different people have different ideas of what Platonic means, and
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Kyle: my quick thought is for me. It means like
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Kyle: no, especially not intentionally romantic, not intentionally erotic or sexual.
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Kyle: yeah, I think that, like those feelings might
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Kyle: arise at times. So in like Platonic space, and they're not intentionally like created or pursued. So yeah. One I wanted to mention. Also, if people are watching us, they haven't heard the word Platonic.
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Michelle Renee: We have.
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Kyle: Mention that.
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Michelle Renee: I just did a interview where we talked to. I was asked on the spot, what is the difference between platonic and nonsexual.
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Kyle: Hmm.
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Michelle Renee: I was like, oh, this is a really good question, and I think what I've come up with is, I do both.
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Michelle Renee: I think that it is. It is good words, right? We had to do some of that when Sesta Foster hit, and we had to really clean up some of our websites to make sure that the the web crawlers didn't
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Michelle Renee: didn't take us out right, because nonsexual has the word sexual in it. So that's a little bit of it. But for me.
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Michelle Renee: I don't have any problems talking about sex in a session.
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Kyle: I.
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Michelle Renee: No problems connecting the dots and saying like example to a client. You see how close we are right now.
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Michelle Renee: Do you see what it would take to take this to the, to the sexual realm
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Michelle Renee: like, I will take you right up to that edge and be like, see, this is where you would do this, this and this right, we've created safety. We have proximity like, I can point that out. And I can answer sex questions and all those things
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Michelle Renee: that's
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Michelle Renee: that can be considered just nonsexual, and that we're not going to take it there. But we're talking about it. I might. I might not have any issues about arousal coming up in that space. It really depends on the client and what our goals are
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Michelle Renee: right. But when I say Platonic.
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Michelle Renee: I specifically mean that I want you to come in with the energy of a friend.
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Michelle Renee: Right? I don't want to be feeling this second guessing of what is your intention in being with this in this space? With me?
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Michelle Renee: Right? I can show up so much more fully when I'm not worried about what is, what do they really want? Right? And we can feel that I don't know how you feel when a client comes in. But
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Michelle Renee: I can feel if there's a a longing, a wanting for something more than what I'm offering
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Michelle Renee: alright. So that's kind of how I I read the difference.
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Kyle: Yeah.
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Kyle: yeah, thank you for sharing that.
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Kyle: I'm sometimes I'm just bouncing all over as I remember things. One, I appreciate you sharing about potential benefits. Work is desensualizing our bodies, desensitizing some or all clothing being removed.
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Kyle: and also yeah, beautiful thing, myself and my clients for some clients has been like de-sexualizing certain body parts like
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Kyle: the breasts, or penis, or giant, it can
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Kyle: be either naked or can be like held
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Kyle: and it. And it can be in a really.
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Kyle: yeah, honestly, this is even like, it's kinda because of my old program. It's still like.
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Kyle: because me, I'm like this kind of still blows that old part of my mind that like, for example, with a client.
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Kyle: We like we had. Each of us would like like with
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Kyle: had our had our like face like like lying on each other's penises, and it was like it was like non-erotic, and it was nurturing. And yeah, just appreciate your bodies and very relaxing.
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Kyle: and wow! So how how beautiful, how powerful and and ex expansive, like expanding! How we as humans can connect in the session. And then
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Kyle: clients can go out and have more ability. I'll say that's been amazing for me, more ability, more realm to connect with people in my my personal life, and then.
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Michelle Renee: We don't have to ignore it right? Like I think one of the interesting things to do in session when we're nude is to purposely gaze at each other.
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Kyle: I mean.
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Michelle Renee: Look, our bodies.
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Kyle: Over and.
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Michelle Renee: Right and do it with consciously, like we're not sneaking. Look like. Let's take some time and just purposely look each other over and get really curious.
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Michelle Renee: On a similar note ahead of the A client, that part of our body image work was accepting of his penis.
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Kyle: Hmm.
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Michelle Renee: Right. That was a lot of her work, and there was a point where he got to a point where he said, Can we celebrate my penis today?
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Michelle Renee: And it was wonderful to not have to ignore a part of our body.
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Kyle: Yeah.
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Michelle Renee: It was so healing. It was beautiful to like.
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Michelle Renee: Create that space with him. How would we? We are? We gonna talk. We're gonna say nice things about all the cool things that we've done with our penis.
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Kyle: Right.
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Michelle Renee: All the great places. It's got us to like the adventures, and like just
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Michelle Renee: loving
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Michelle Renee: this part of the body that we have to hide so much
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Michelle Renee: same thing for Volvos. Right? All the all the mixtures of of configurations out there.
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Michelle Renee: those parts of us get like tucked away, and only allowed to be out
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Michelle Renee: during very minimal little time of the like. The amount of time that we get to to even look at them, especially for both owners.
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Michelle Renee: They're not. They're hidden. Our our genitals are hidden, and you know we don't have to hold them every day to pee. Do you know what I mean like, there's a difference in how our bodies
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Michelle Renee: interact with our genitals. And so just having a space where they can be part of the session
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Michelle Renee: in a in a really
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Michelle Renee: different way.
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Michelle Renee: A different way than usual.
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Michelle Renee: It's cool.
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Michelle Renee: We get to cool things.
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Kyle: I know I feel so so grateful that there's always more realms to explore. And I wanna say, for yeah, for me, personally, I
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Kyle: yeah, resonates so deeply.
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Kyle: powerfully when you're time out.
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Kyle: Celebrating, appreciating, and advise. And for me, specifically as a
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Kyle: yeah raises a man.
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Kyle: yeah, my penis are just just my nakedness, like
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Kyle: whether it was directly or or between the lines. Yeah, I feel like growing up. I got so many messages of like, Oh, Hi, Bat! It's bad. It's dirty, real. So. And it's
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Kyle: yeah. And it it affects me, I think, affects almost all of us.
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Kyle: so getting to be in a safe space which, celebrated and expansive, is, yeah, that's so amazing.
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Michelle Renee: I would get to talk about this Kyle.
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Kyle: Yeah.
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Kyle: So you let me know anytime you I can share more. Let me know anytime you wanna and.
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Michelle Renee: I, I feel like we're gonna we can talk about this all day.
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Michelle Renee: It was gonna turn into a really long video for people. Let's remind them how they can find us.
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Kyle: Sounds, great.
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Michelle Renee: Yeah. Kyle.
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Kyle: Sounds great. Yeah, I'm Kyle, Robert Hoffman, and I forgot to say in the beginning, I'm
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Kyle: I'm based in Philadelphia and I travel to clients and been doing certain new workshops and sessions in the winter in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And you're like wild manners Lgbtq plus Mecca, and also
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Kyle: clients have flown me out and stuff. And I work with people remotely. Yeah. And my website is cuddling and coaching.com.
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Kyle: It's the best way to reach me. But also, if you want to like friend me, or follow me on
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Kyle: Facebook or my yeah, Youtube Channel, that's great, too.
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Michelle Renee: Awesome I'm at human connection. lab.com. I'm based in San Diego, but I, too, travel a bit, and I'm over on the east coast in Baltimore a couple of times a year, and so, clients.
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Michelle Renee: we'll come in and do a couple of sessions together like a little Mini intensive with me when I'm out there. And
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Michelle Renee: yeah, it's good to do this work.
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Michelle Renee: Yeah, thanks for being a great colleague.
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Kyle: Yeah, thank you. You, too, Michelle. It's been amazing to share with you. And
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Kyle: yeah, and everyone who's watching, I really acknowledge you. I celebrate you for your courage and interests in in listening to this, and
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Kyle: and say, if you're, I'll speak for myself, that if you're interested, if we're working together, or if we haven't, and you're just interested in this
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Kyle: it's really warmly welcome to to to bring it up, and there won't be any judgment. There's no, you're not committing to anything.
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Kyle: And I I know
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Kyle: well for myself, when I'm in the client seat, and and from so many people this, these things can be really challenging and take a lot of courage to
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Kyle: to bring up and ask about. So
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Kyle: I yeah, I send everyone encouragement whether it's, I guess, what's me or people in your life. I yes, and your encouragement to have these authentic conversations.
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Michelle Renee: Yeah, it does not hurt to ask at least us. I
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Michelle Renee: maybe start with the pro. If it's hard to ask people in your life start with the pro. But.
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Kyle: Don't! Don't ask your don't ask your accountant, or something.
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Michelle Renee: Oh, my gosh! I could do a whole course on how to work with professionals
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Michelle Renee: like what? Not to ask your professional and what to ask your professional. Which professional, isn't it? But yeah, well, thanks. Kyle. Well, I think we're both going to share this on our own Youtube. So back and forth. We'll we'll put our links in there. So if you find it, Kyle, through me or me through Kyle.
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Michelle Renee: Thanks so much. We love you.
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Kyle: Thanks. Yup.
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Kyle: thanks, bye, bye.
